Questions

Answers

Sat, 10 May 2003

If your CM does not listen to Fred, you might keep "practicing" the same old dramas for a lifetime.

For example, you might check your own feelings of wanting to debate, meanwhile missing opportunities.

Debating Team

Having Good Fun with Arguing

Note:

Do not pick the markets as an opponent.

Sat, 10 May 2003

You might get to know your clients well enough to understand each other's feelings about things like:

Cash Equivalent

When traders and clients see each other as fees and capital ... they may forget to check each others' feelings about trading.

Clip: www.adventurepostoffice.com/

Sat, 10 May 2003

You might re-write your question in SVO-p. See Trading Tribe Process.

To check your writing for clarity, have a 5-the grader read it and tell you if it's any good.

Lesko

Kids might wonder

what in the world he's talking about.

Sat, 10 May 2003

Manhattan Tribe Report

Congratulations !

The work of the Trading Tribe is to follow the process. Results seem proportional to the intention to jump into the feelings part.

As the leader, exemplify jumping into some of your own items is an important part of your job.

Suggestion: examine your feelings of wanting to do it right, wanting to prepare, lecture and understand before you jump in.

Ready to Jump and Trying to Jump

are not the same as jumping.

Same goes for trading.

http://www.skydivesouthsask.com/

1979imagepages/197919.htm

Sat, 10 May 2003

FAQ seems to be trending along in that direction.

Trading Tribe & FAQ

Life is a book you write,

one day at a time.

Sat, 10 May 2003

Make sure to keep your risk in line with what you can handle, so as to keep your mind clear, your ability to re-buy intact.

One Way to Keep the Mind Clear

Amazing Survival Story

Man Impaled with Banana

"It was a horrendous hurricane. The boat was thrashing this way and that and we were fighting for our very lives. I looked at Jessie and yelled, 'this is no time to be eating a banana!' Then I noticed it was coming out of his forehead, not his mouth," grimaced Imana James.

Hurricane Velma hit in the Atlantic so quickly and with such force that all ships and boats in the area north of Bermuda were lost, except the James' and their 41' yellow ketch, "Nanu Nanu."

"Thought I was ambushed, just like my namesake," said Jessie James. "I felt this fruity felling between my eyes. Guess it's kinda like a straw going through a telephone pole in a tornado. I yanked it out. Lucky those things are slippery. Miraculously it didn't hit anything vital so I closed up the holes with duct tape and we rode out the rest of the storm. Guess it was my lucky day."

Clip:www.48north.com/apr2002/ne4.htm

Here's a party game - you act out (with just facial expressions and body language - no talking) the following:

The others try to guess which.

You might even try these:

We do this kind of thing at Trading Tribe meetings - after a while all the expressions look pretty much the same.

Joy

Clip: www.dipaola.org/stanford/

facial/class6notes.html

Fri, 09 May 2003

Try to dramatize to each other the feeling of wanting (to find the flow) until it converts to aha.

When wanting disappears, having remains.

Equipment for the Path

Helping Each Other Get into the Flow

http://www.centurynovelty.com/

cart/general/squirttoys/Index1.htm

Fri, 9 May 2003

Sydney Trading Tribe


Dear Mr. Seykota,

I would like to start a trading tribe in Sydney,
Australia. Is there anything I need to do?

Welcome

Sydney Australia!

You are now on-line

on the

Tribe Directory Page.

Sydney

Map: www.expedia.com

Thu, 8 May 2003

I feel gratitude for what you are doing ... thank you.

Into every songwriter's life comes a song,

the source of which cannot be explained

by personal experience. 

- Noel Paul Stookey

Thu, 8 May 2003

Own risk tolerance Vs Client Risk Tolerance

Dear Ed,

Just going with the flow of FAQ – and enjoying every bit. Thanks for it all.

I am inclined to trade aggressively for my own account – often with huge drawdowns; ( holding on to positions so long as they are in line with their major trends ) No debilitating stomach problems yet :)

I aspire to manage money, but feel that most investors would not be comfortable with my drawdowns. Therefore, I paper trade a portfolio of long stocks & cash only, with very low heat and consequently low drawdowns too – as a model to present to likely clients.

My dilemma is – should I seek clients who are more inclined to my trading style, or offer something more acceptable to their gut? If I choose the latter, I wonder what kind of schizophrenic repercussions might surface in real time trading ?

Would appreciate your thoughts –

Best Regards,

It might help to fully experience what your customers want, before you trade their accounts.

Choices Sometimes Rest

on Comfort Levels

So Goldilocks says, "This seat is too hard, and this seat is too soft, and this one, the seat on the exchange, is just right."  So she buys a seat on the exchange with the Three Bears, right at the top of the market, and the rest is history, sort of.

Clips:

http://www.churchtowninn.com/

inn-policy.htm

http://ww2.kaneso.co.jp/data/

Thu, 8 May 2003

The Process


"The Trading Tribe Process is not a method for practicing trading. It is a method for resolving drama by experiencing feelings..."

Ed:

I read about the TT Process and I see your positive intentions. Actually it recalls me an attempt I made about one year ago through an on-line community to keep an on-going thread to share feelings and weaknesses with other members.

It was kind of a "Losers and Gamblers Anonymous" thread where we would talk about our deepest fears, feelings and weaknesses. In the process I confessed most of my failures and dramas experienced up to then, in the early stages of my trading.

Although I could not get other members to take part in the thread I benefited a lot from the experience, basically for two reasons: (1) I got in touch with deep feelings such as fear of losing, greed, hope, etc., I was trying to suppress unconsciously and just let them go; and (2) I got wholehearted support from some valuable members through heartfelt sharing of experiences and feelings (they happen to be professionals in the business).

So, I would suggest you to set up a similar page on Trading Tribe. Or, perhaps, is this the original intent behind the FAQ pages? I will be glad to participate.

With kind regards,

Your thread and this site can assist with ID-ing some feelings.

The AHA comes at celebrating  feelings for positive intention in an

Intentional Community.

Face to face, people notice postures, tones and other nuances.

Joy - Even Better in Person

Clip: www.dipaola.org/stanford/

facial/class6notes.html

Thu, 8 May 2003

Fighting the Ego

"There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking it." - Morpheus,
the Matrix.

When walking; just walk. When trading; just trade.

Simple enough to understand; but the hardest thing to do. To take the diamond from within the mountain of rock and polish and shape it to crystal-clear perfection requires as much patience and persistence as it does skill.

A wise mind fades as easily as a rainbow; whereas a foolish mind is as difficult to rid ones self of as a vicious watchdog.

HOWEVER, when we work long and hard to  glimpse of a magnificent rainbow; we can't cling to them as the creatures on the river bottom; for in this case, even though we have seen the full spectrum of visible light through the refractions in both the rainbow and the diamond, we're still stuck down on the river bottom at zero flow velocity because attachments to these material things can not lead us to freedom from them!

Essentially what I am trying to say is this. When seeing the rainbow, just see it, but know that it does not exist. Once we see something does not exist; it is more difficult to become attached to it.

I began seeing the rainbow many years ago; it was very beautiful and I became attached to it when I saw it. It hurt me when it vanished from my sky. Years later, my sky opened up to become everybody's sky; I learned that the rainbow; although beautiful, didn't exist, but I consistently patted myself on the back every time I had gained a measure of intuitive insight. It has not been until just recently that I have began to come to terms with the fact that I neither exist, nor do I not exist.

It's a difficult process though; the ego won't give up without a fight. It doesn't want to stop acting out the drama that it exists as a separate entity from the infantine universal energy. On Guard Ego!

Getting to the celebration point is the work of The Trading Tribe.

See Trading Tribe Process at Going it Alone.

Celebrate !

Clip: http://partysupplieshut.

makesparties.com/index.php3

Thu, 8 May 2003

I am a beginner. Which market better to trade, electronic or open outcry?

Thu, 8 May 2003

Stock Tip

see: Assistant

Ed,

thanks for shedding some light on my friend [xxx] who claims to know you. It makes me question his character.

Check out [yyy] Stock. Its a little late in the game but a nice 7 month, 7 weeks chart nonetheless. The optimal time to get in would have been in late February, when it had that nice hook up.

The recent double top looks like this thing is running out of gas although if it takes out that hook down from 3 days ago one could buy in at the high of that hook down.

Looks like one could buy today also and place a stop at today's low as it looks like a hook up is occurring today. But you probably already knew this.

Your stock is consolidating, below new high ground.

Locate the feeling of buying your stock. Compare with the feeling of buying others making all-time highs.

Making New Highs

Bet on it going even higher.

April 7, 2001, a Delta 2 rocket lifts off from Cape Canaveral at 11:02 a.m. with the Mars Odyssey spacecraft aboard

.

Clip: http://skydiary.com/

Thu, 8 May 2003

Congratulations

on your first meeting !

Thu, 08 May 2003

 
Validation and Commitment 2

see: Validation and Commitment


Mr. Seykota:

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll be picking that book up today. While I never would have thought of my parents as "toxic", I can't argue with the obvious: someone seeking validation is clearly someone carrying around some drama of having been invalidated.

Thanks for posting my comments too. I hope others might find some value in them. I know that for me, seeing my personal thoughts posted in a public forum somehow created an atmosphere of greater objectivity that allowed me to see things I hadn't seen before.

Just a quick update on where I ended up (so far) after all of yesterday's "work".

I realized last night that "working your butt off" and "commitment" are two very different animals. I've worked hard on speech and trading. But upon reflection, I realize that every time I thought I was making a commitment to these areas, what was actually there was "I'm going to work really hard, I'm going to give it all I've got and hopefully it will all work out the way I want it to."

This is more than a little different from what I decided last night. Last night I made a real commitment. I'm going to be the trader that I've always wanted to be, NO MATTER WHAT. I'm going to get past this speech thing NO MATTER WHAT. There is no more doubt regarding this process. No more room for "chance" and "hopes" that it will all work out. There is only my DECISION to accomplish this and the firm intention to proceed from day to day, step by step until I'm there. That's it.

I know that feelings to the contrary will arise. I will want to stop. I will want to quit. I will wonder if I should do something else. I will wonder if maybe I can't do this. Those feelings are free to be there, I can let them arise and I can let them pass. THEY SAY NOTHING ABOUT MY COMMITMENT.

Often in the evening I feel that I don't want to brush my teeth. I'd rather just head straight for bed. But every evening I brush my teeth nonetheless, because I have a commitment to oral hygiene and my feelings, while they are valid and free to be there, have nothing to do with that commitment.

I aim to make my trading process, following the system, a bit like brushing my teeth. I follow my rules, I update my data, I look over my charts in accordance with my plan. Because I'm committed to trading successfully, not just part time, but all the time. There are no "ifs, ands or buts" regarding the outcome. The outcome is a foregone conclusion. I have the system, I have the resources to trade that system, and I have the resources to resolve whatever issues might still be in the way of my following that system. Assuming a genuine commitment, success is then, a foregone conclusion. There is no "haziness" here. There are no more variables, other than the variables inherent to trading. That, I believe, is commitment. It's not "hopefully I can pull this off", nor "maybe I can do it if the gods look upon me favorably". It's "This is my decision, this is what I'm doing. 'Nuff said."

Best to you, and thanks again for this great resource.

Thu, 8 May 2003

A Wonderful Plan

Hi Ed,

I am a trader. There is nothing in the world that excites me more than trading which doesn’t make my story unique, does it? Actually, it is my husband and I, which makes two of us.

A good friend of mine introduced me to the markets about two years ago. He set me up with a broker and “black box” system, both of which were disastrous experiences. Nothing new either, right?

Here is where it gets better. My husband is a
psychologist / hypno-therapist who has been a serious handicapper of horse racing and sports (football & basketball) all his life. He uses advanced statistics and his own special psychological techniques to make his handicapping picks. Once he learned about trading, he immediately identified the similarities between handicapping and trading.

It allowed us quickly develop our own trading ideas. This year I left my job as a vice president of a public relations firm to focus on trading full time. My husband still practices psychological counseling, mainly over the phone, while he is not busy trading.

To expand our capital base, we are looking for a partnership with an established trader, like yourself, where the sponsor would receive a percentage of our profits.

We believe that only good things can happen if you reach out.

My husband would be glad to share with you his ideas.

Who knows, they might help you with your own trading. Feel free to give us a call at any time or let us know if you would like to set up a special time for us to meet. Thanks --

Consider the feeling of excitement you derive from the market ...  and the trades you put on to get that excitement.  See Trading Tribe Process.

Little Lulu Stands Behind Her Man

Lulu is a rascal who lets nothing stop her from getting what she wants. Little LuLu, little Lulu with dimples on your chin ... always in and out of trouble, mostly always in.

Clip: http://michelesworld.net/dmm/

lulu/comics/146.jpg

Thu, 8 May 2003

Greetings,

Thanks for creating and maintaining FAQ.

In your directory page, you state:

"In response to vigorous demand for this work, Ed is currently preparing a training program and materials, leading to certification of mastery and right to use the Trading Tribe name and logo"

I wish to become certified. How do I become certified?

Here in the bay area, I am a member of the San Jose Tribe. We have yet to meet. We have very few people - two last time I checked with the local contact.

He suggests waiting until the group obtains more people. From your experience, how many people do you suggest for group size at a minimum and maximum level.

Thank you for sharing and contributing the Trading Tribe Process to the trading community.

Tom

A tribe of two or three can work. See Trading Tribe Process. You might consider the feeling of having to wait.

Stand and Wait and Serve

His state Is kingly: thousands at his bidding speed, And post o'er land and ocean without rest; They also serve who only stand and wait. -- John Milton (1608-1674)

http://www.groundstrike.com/

limoges/dubarry/bearwaiter.htm

Thu, 8 May 2003

Feeling of Regret


Dear Dr. Ed -

From 1996 - 1998, I worked for the two most successful Internet companies in NYC. Yet due aggressive personality, I sabotaged myself with management and missed out reaping the rewards of two successful IPOs. In 1998, I was debating whether to start trading or follow my parents advice and go to business school. I went to business school and missed out on profiting on the bubble. Now that I am trading, I know these feeling of regret will affect my performance (ie getting into and out of positions too quickly and maybe in other areas I have not found yet.).

The Trading Tribe revolves around feeling these feelings and not suppressing them and seeing where they originate from. I think I have done that. Is there anything else that I should be doing to make sure these feelings of regret do not sabotage my trading and life?

Thanks,

Seeing where feelings originate is incidental; communicating them is central the Trading Tribe Process.

Consider celebrating your feeling of missing out.  Likely it also occurs early in the market cycle. Listen for it. It could be a pretty good opportunity indicator.

Missing the Move

After missing the train to Hogwarts, Ron and Harry have a near mishap as they fly the Ford Anglia.

Clip: www.allmoviephoto.com/

photo/2002_harry_potter_and_

the_chamber_of_secrets_067.html

Wed, 7 May 2003

Check if your stoicism feels like suppressing, or like  allowing your feelings them to be whatever they are.

The Parthenon (477 - 438 BC)

... 100 years later ...

Zeno of Cittium (333 - 261 BC)

Zeno, starts the Stoic school of philosophy in about 308 B.C. He holds that human beings are at their best when free from passion and when they calmly accept all occurrences as the unavoidable result of divine will, or of the natural order.

Stoics hold that emotions like fear or envy or passion arise from false judgments and that the sage - a person who attains moral and intellectual perfection - does not have them.

The Trading Tribe holds that The Trading Tribe Process, that encourages passionate expression from Fred to CM, is a pretty good path to freedom; suppressing feelings, inexorably entrain drama.

More on Zeno:

http://members.aol.com/

heraklit1/zeno.htm

http://neptune.spaceports.com/

~words/zeno.html

Clip:

http://harpy.uccs.edu/greek/athens.html

Wed, 7 May 2003

Assistant

Mr. Seykota, about a year ago I heard that you were in need of an trading assistant.

I was just wondering if the position is still open and if so then I would like to apply. I live in Huntington Beach which is not far from you and I have the series 3, 7, and 55 licenses.

I'm already somewhat familiar with your trading style as a friend of mine have taught me a few things. I would enjoy hearing from you.

p.s. Was that really you who signed my Market Wizards book last December when you went to the Laker game with [my friend] or did he just sign your name and [trick] me as usual?

Then, become creative, successful and productive in your career.

I can pay you, say 100% of whatever you earn.  You may start right away.

Off to Work

Don't forget to pack a nutritious lunch.

Clip: www.reaganfoundation.org/

Thu, 7 May 2003

Sitcomfusion

see Genie in a Bottle

Elizabeth Montgomery played a Witch. Barbara Eden played a Genie. Other than that I am enjoying your FAQ immensely.

Looking at the Mirror

Thoughts, such as in your previous send, are logical and have little sensory component.

The Trading Tribe Process is not  a method for practicing trading. It is a method for resolving drama by experiencing feelings; the Trading Tribe Process might lead to a change in trading style, or to another career entirely.

Thoughts

Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer.

Feelings

Homer Contemplating the Throat of Bart.

Clips:

http://www.pixelcraft.com.au/

galleries/humor/homer.html

http://home.teleport.com/

Wed, 7 May 2003

Dave and Hal

Hello Ed,

A small note about Fred, I think the take off on Fred-ian Model is very cleaver.

My thoughts are that when I think of Fred I think of the Friday the 13th horror movies, the character Fred or Freddy!

What do you think of naming the subconscious Hal? from the Stanley Kubrick classic movie 2001: A Space odyssey. Based on the novel by the famed Arthur Clark.

So 'Hal' would be the sub conscious mind and 'Dave' would be the conscious mind.

There are many similarities between Hal - Dave and the conscious - subconscious model.

HAL seems calculatingly adversarial. Dave eventually lobotomizes HAL.

Fred and the Conscious Mind (CM) typically cooperate to common benefit.  Sometimes Fred arranges drama to get CM's attention.

HAL

ICU with my CPU

Dave: HAL, I won't argue with you anymore.  Open the door!

HAL: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore.   Goodbye.

Wed, 07 May 2003

Fred

Hi Ed

In the Structure of The Mind is Fred always right?

"Modern society teaches us to suppress our feelings". Fred feed himself thru experiences that involve other Fred's.

Fred does not deal in right and wrong. Conscious Mind does. See The Trading Tribe Process.

Your Fred communicates with other Freds with subtle expressions and postures and tones. Fred can enrol other Freds in staging attention grabbing dramas.

Juggling Knives on a High Wire

Sometimes trading takes unnecessary risks in front of an audience.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/

~mpeters/groundacts.html

Wed, 07 May 2003

Validation and Commitment

Mr. Seykota:

I was very happy to discover your "Trading Tribe" and have been reading the comments closely. Lately I've been writing down a lot of my thoughts about trading. I decided to take a week to explore my thoughts and feelings about trading in depth. I want to get clear on my relationship to trading before putting on any more trades.

Anyway, I started to write the following this morning and thought I'd send it your way. I think I'm hitting on something in here, but was hoping to get your thoughts on it as you seem to have a great ability to cut through the BS and get to the heart of the matter. (Or maybe I'm just trying to get some validation?!)

Thanks for the website and your willingness to share your time and insights!

-----


I find myself trying to come up with a question or insight that I can send to Ed, hoping that he'll "tap me on the shoulder" and validate me, like "You've got it! You're destined to be great!" I have often found myself hoping that some "authority" is going to "see something in me" and validate my goals. I mean, if only a "market wizard" would see something in me, then I'd know I can do it!

(I'm embarrassed to admit that I have some need to be "great", to be recognized for my "greatness", all the while recognizing that the need likely stems from just the opposite. In other words, trying to prove that I'm great because I fear that in fact I'm nothing but.)

I extend that to wonder if I'm seeking some kind of validation from the market? Like I need to put on a great trade to "prove" to myself that I can succeed, that I'm cut out for this. It's almost like "if I get good results, that will prove that I can win at this game. Whereas if I get poor results, it means I can't."

In writing that I notice that I feel that MY RESULTS DEFINE ME, or at least my potential. If I win I'm good and I can succeed, if I lose there's something wrong with me and I can't do this thing.

I'm looking at the market to tell me who I am, to tell me what I can and can't do! WOW, what a tough game to play! Trading with money is challenging enough, but trading my sense of self-worth, isn't that a HUGE risk? What's the stop-loss on THAT one? Risking 1/2% of my equity is one thing, but putting my SELF on the line? How could anyone possibly play this game with THAT kind of risk? Talk about "overtrading"!

(What occurs to me in thinking about that is this sense of "I have an effective, proven trend-following methodology and the resources to trade it. If I'm not making it work, then there is something wrong with me. And therefore I can't win."

I realize that I am the critical component in making the system work, which elicits the concern that maybe there's something wrong with me that prevents me from making it work. If the system is good but I'm not making it work then there is something wrong
with me.)

The irony is that ultimately I have a lot of confidence in my self. I mean, at the core of it. I'm persistent as hell and never quit at anything (except temporarily) because in my heart I know that I can succeed if I just keep working at it, if I stay alert and refine my approach, continue correcting until I get the results I want. I believe there's always a way and you just have to stick with it until you find it. (I'm not talking just about trading, but about everything I take on.)

It's funny because it's as though I really believe in my own ability to succeed at anything, yet I still "need" some kind of external validation to fully accept that! It's almost as though I believe that anything is possible, but maybe, just maybe, it isn't possible for me. If only I could get some external validation that would demonstrate that it IS possible for me, then I could really believe in myself. (I can't even begin to tell you how unpleasant it is for me, Mr. Self-Reliance, to discover that about myself.)

And really, that's always been a concern in lots of things I do: "am I cut out for this?" Is it meant for me? Am I on the right path? When rationally I know that there isn't any path, that my life isn't predetermined, that no one is pulling the strings. You make your choices and you deal with them. But I need to know that I've made the right choice! It's just like trying to predict the market! I need a "forecast" on my future. I need to know in advance that I can pull this off, that this is right for me. It's as though I need some kind of external validation for my trading before I can fully commit to it.

In the meantime, I find myself going in and out of trading. I trade for a while, then I stop. I wonder if there is something else I should be doing. There isn't anything I'd rather do, but sometimes trading is just too hard. Do I really want the stress? And yet, I'm well aware that my doubts around it are fully rooted in wanting to avoid the discomfort of risk, losses, etc. I never find myself thinking "I don't like trading, I'm not interested in the markets, etc." I just find myself wanting to avoid the markets when I'm not doing well, or when I'm getting "burned out". Or when I just don't want to deal with the uncertainty of it all. But I always come back to trading.

I find myself thinking "if I knew that I could succeed at trading at the level at which I want to succeed, then I would be fully committed and would never sway in my practice nor intentions. I'd just keep doing it until I succeeded." (WHO WOULDN'T?!) As though it's even possible for me to know that?! Who's going to "validate" me? Who's going to tap me on the shoulder and say "You're it, you're the one, you're going to succeed." Nobody! Rationally I realize that it's all up to me, that whether or not I succeed is all a matter of commitment and am I willing to do whatever it takes to succeed?

It's hard for me to write this to anyone, to admit this to anyone, because I'm a very self-reliant person and pride myself on the way I think for myself, and do what I want, without needing validation from anyone else. And yet looking at what I've written here, it's very strange to realize that in this area that is so important to me, I'm the exact opposite of all that I stand for!

Bottom line: I have an effective system, I have the capital to trade it, I have all the resources I need to succeed as a trader. But I'm having a very hard time making that final leap of faith and confidence that would have me fully committed. It's like I need to know first. There have been things I've done in my life that I gave 110% too and they didn't work out. So I hold back internally now. I don't want to give 100% unless I know I can win. I don't want to give it my all only to be disappointed again. If only I could get some validation, some evidence, some cue that I can win, THEN I'd give it 100%. Rationally I know that's "messed up", but it's what there for me, at the feeling level.

----- second send ---

Mr. Seykota:

Upon further reflection and re-reading of my previous comments to you (which are pasted below as well), I realize that I didn't communicate my thoughts accurately. Two points:

1) Re: "validation". Re-reading my comments, I think I give the impression of someone who seeks validation before making any moves. Nothing could be farther from the truth. For my entire adult life, I've always done my own research and drawn my own conclusions. It's very rare that I solicit opinions from others. Having stuttered severely since I was a child, I learned pretty quick not to pay too much mind to what others think about me or what I'm doing.

When I speak of "validation", it's not a "lifestyle". It's more like, in this particular case, with trading, I think it would be great if someone who knew what he was talking about told me I'm on the right track. BUT, a) that's not a request nor the purpose of my email and b) I'm perceptive enough to realize that no one can ever give me genuine validation.

It's up to me, and nobody else is qualified to figure out whether I can or can't do something. Even if Market Wizard Ed Seykota said "listen man, you have it together and you're gonna' be one of the greats", it wouldn't take more than three days before I'd conclude that "Ed Seykota doesn't really know me so he might be wrong." In short, I'd love some validation, but in the end, I know it wouldn't matter because the issue is internal and no amount of external feedback is going to resolve it.

2) I realized that much of my "approach - avoidance" of trading has to do with the fear of losses. BUT NOT in the traditional sense that traders often describe. I have NO problem with taking losses. Stops are not an issue for me. So long as losses are taken within the parameters of my system, under the rules I've set forth for myself, I don't care much about losses. But where my issue with losses becomes a real "issue" is that I think I fear insurmountable losses. Not a "blow-out" trade, because I account for that and protect myself with stops. And I trade too small, as a percentage of equity, for any trade to do much damage. But I'm concerned about a string of losses, one of those "against the odds" runs of losses that hurts me.

But it goes a bit deeper than that. This is what I meant when I talked earlier about my results defining me. I realize that I have a pretty healthy level of self-confidence. I don't think I could be where I am without it. (I'm a confident person, but if I go too long without results, I can start to question myself.) But I find myself worried that somehow I'll end up on the wrong side of the odds and that any given string of losses can MEAN that I'm destined for more and more losses. It's a bit like "if I start trading again next week and take some losses, I'm afraid it'll just be the beginning of the end for me."

TOTALLY irrational. I've worked out the numbers, risk of ruin, etc. For this to happen it would require a) an exceptionally unlikely probability and b) that I sit back and keep taking losses, doing nothing about it. Which is absurd, because I can exercise a lot of control over how, when, how much I trade. I have self discipline. I would never allow myself to get crushed.

Mind you, I've been trading and/or investing for about 18 years. A few years on the floor, even. And I've NEVER taken a big loss. I've NEVER been hurt bad. So it's not like I'm replaying some bad trade and shying away from it. This is why I'm so puzzled about it. Because it's totally irrational.

I have nothing realistic to fear, I've proven to myself that I can handle losses, and yet I find myself sometimes walking away from trading because of that fear.

What's at the heart of it, I think, is something like "Losses might mean that I'm a loser, might be an indication that I'm destined to fail." I'm not afraid of losses. I'm afraid of LOSING, as a "lifestyle", if you will. Maybe there's even a little bit of "I don't want to go for it committed because I don't want to discover that I can't win."

There's a sense of "I want to win, it's important to me to win, and if there's a chance of losing, if I can't be certain that I'm going to win, I'm hesitant to play." I gotta' know first that I can win, but in something like this, that's not possible!

Any insights on how to get out of this mind trap?

Thanks ...

----- third send -----

Mr. Seykota -

So sorry to bombard with you so many long emails about myself. I'm sure our little dramas, while utterly fascinating to ourselves, are not nearly so interesting to others! But I've literally been sitting here all day writing and pondering these issues. And I think maybe I've hit on something.

First let me ask you, are the "aha" experience and the sensations you describe "required" as part and parcel of an accurate insight? I mean, I think I'm relatively self-aware and I'm not generally shocked or surprised at what comes out of the depths of my mind.

I'm wondering if only "aha" insights are valid or maybe some people get the "aha" because their "stuff" lies deeper and it's a bigger shock when it surfaces. Maybe for some of us, there's no "aha" because it's not something actively avoided or suppressed, but just something that we didn't give much thought to, even though we're "aware" of it?

I ask because I've come up with some things that make a lot of sense to me, but I'm not feeling any dramatic sensations nor a major AHA! It just seems to fit and it makes a lot of sense to me.

I'll try to keep it brief:

In elementary school I was the "smartest" kid in the class. I KNEW I was going to win the spelling bee and go on to the district finals. I practiced the word list over and over and I did everything in my power to assure that I'd win. I lost. Second place. Because I misheard the word! I spelled the wrong word and lost on a word that I could easily have spelled.

As a kid I entered a contest to win a jacket. I wanted that jacket more than anything. I prayed every night to win, made all kinds of promises to God. In my mind I did everything I could to win that jacket. But I didn't.

I think somewhere in there I concluded "I can't win at what I really want. If it's really important to me, I can do everything in my power, but I won't get it." I know I concluded this somewhere because when I get under stress, when something doesn't work out, that's where I go: "I can't win! It doesn't matter how hard I try, life is rigged against me."

As an adult, two things I really wanted: to "fix" my speech and be a really good trader. I busted my butt at both. I did everything. I never gave up, I just kept working and working and working, but without getting the results I wanted. It made no sense to me that someone could work so hard, persist for so long, and not get the results he wanted.

I've succeeded at lots of stuff. Lots of stuff comes easy to me. But that stuff "doesn't count" because I don't do well at the things that really matter to me. (In other words, I dismiss all evidence contrary to my belief in order to maintain my belief!)

So I think I'm in this loop:

Belief says I can't have what I really want.
I really want to be a good trader. So I can't. Because I really want it. But I don't give up, I have to try. I can't give up on what I want. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't try. But all the trying in the world won't matter because I can't win at what I really want.

So I end up in this approach avoidance thing, depending on which part of me is dominant at the time: my persistence, or my belief that I can't win.

And THIS is why losses MEAN so much to me. Because every loss I take is not just a loss, not just part of the system, not just an ordinary part of trading, but it's EVIDENCE that I can't win. It's "proof" that my belief will be realized, that I can't win at what's really important to me.

If this is indeed the issue, I can see my way out of it. But I'm left wondering if it is indeed the issue, since I didn't have this "aha" experience.

Your situation seems consistent with some forms of early neglect.

See the Trading Tribe Process, at Methods.

Toxic Parents

sometimes pass on a legacy of seeking invalidation. If this is true for you, you might find yourself, and some of your lost feelings, in a book such as this.

 Clip: www.amazon.com

Wed, 7 May 2003

The Trading Tribe Process - Some Thoughts on the Theory


Hi Ed,

First, that it works is that it works. Given current level of neuroscience, a theory of human cognition is more important as an account that can increase its ability to work, than its neurological accuracy.

I feel drawn to point out similarities to other parallel work that might elaborate the patterns you have put forth. In that spirit, I've attached an article on the "reading faces" work of Paul Ekman. You can also find this at
http://www.gladwell.com/2002/

2002_08_05_a_face.htm .

I am also put in mind of the work of Dr. Dave Dobson. He thought the term unconscious mind misleading. You may share this in common, like Fred. Utilizing some of the early NLP awarenesses, he pointed out that the right brain (hemisphere) typically processes experiences (pictures and feelings) while the left brain processes words.

Cross hemispheric activity creates functional action patterns and labels and dysfunctional ones as well. In Dobson's way of thinking; modern, educated people are typically trying to run their brains with the labels (what he termed the Conscious mind) while they are being run by their experiences (which he termed the Other-than-conscious mind).

He had an attraction to the old Quaker adage: "You can't think your way into better acting, but you can act your way into better thinking."

He described the Conscious mind, very similar to Milton Erickson, as a "gift" of the "Other than conscious mind."

Erickson insisted that feelings came from the unconscious. This appears to parallel your ideas about thoughts and feelings.

Milton Erickson

Master of bypassing the conscious mind

 and communicating directly with Fred

http://www.erickson-foundation.org/

Wed, 7 May 2003

Money Management and R-multiples


Dear Ed,

I just found out about The Trading Tribe yesterday. My deep compliments for it. As a long time trader, I have to admit that your answers and the accompanying pictures made me have some long laugher in a very respectful way.

After trading for more than 15 years I start to believe to know (of course I will never really know) that I've met the biggest enemy toward trading and it is within myself.

Repeating behaviors in similar trading situations seems to fit each other like on a play script for a actor. Therefore I strongly support the idea to put great time to psychological ground works in a way like finding out about the good intentions of bad feelings (while trading, i.e. fear, greed, guilt, anxiousness etc.) This forum is a wonderful basis to do so.

Besides, gaming theories and money management theories helped me much to try to understand the way, why 10 different traders trading the same market, entering at the very same time, price and direction, will finally show 10 different results. In that respect I tend to believe that the only rational in testing is to find a way to fit money and risk management into one's personal beliefs. (Hopefully beliefs which will support my activity)

I've read all FAQ from this year and interestingly I've never found a question regarding the money management sector, which separates core equity money and markets money in a way, that different risk parameters may present a way to enable people to find some algorithms which may better fit their ability to accept the DD's.

Question 1: Do you put strong importance into balancing and rebalancing core and markets money or do you totally ignore this factor?


Question 2: On several occasions you have stated that day trading has a big disadvantage against position trading (in a trend following matter, of course). While I fully agree and understand your arguments, it may be forgotten that on the basis of a very small risk level (i.e. market move) a trade may be established on a day trading basis just to move it over into a position trade, letting the market create a big risk multiple of the initial risk (1R). With the help of sound money management techniques (core money and markets money, pyramiding etc.) someone totally against looking at the markets on a intra day basis may be very well rewarded.

Trading long term trends with close initial entry stops is different from day trading.

Riding a Wild Bull

Not exactly the right time to stop and balance your checkbook.

http://anuko.bei.t-online.de/

America/Texas-rodeo.html

Wed, 7 May 2003

Different Kind of FAQ

see: Genie

I never said their association with great traders but with industry was the one of the reason of success of those people. Being with those GREAT people was one of the privilege of being with industry. A lot of different things a learnt when you are in a particular environment. When one explains thing in audience the effect is different as compared to when you are trying to learn through cyberspace. I believe this thing is mentioned somewhere in Ed's FAQ.

Also calling Ed's FAQ's, FAQ, also intrigues me as usually most of the questions are different!

FAQ are usually posted against a particular product on a website and they usually stay the same in number and content.

I hope the person who sent the question is not associated with the financial industry!

FAQ sites normally provide tips for operating technical products.

The Trading Tribe FAQ follows the Socratic Method - the teachers (the traders over there on the left) ask me questions to educate me.

Tech Support FAQ

Q: shaver doesn't go on

A: plug it in

 

Q: on now - still doesn't work

A: stand closer

Wed, 7 May 2003

Melbourne Tribe

Hello Ed

I would like to form an Intentional Community in Australia.

Welcome

Melbourne Australia!

You are now on-line on the Tribe Directory Page.

Melbourne

Map: www.expedia.com

Exploring Feelings


Dear Ed,

I thank you so much for all your help and for having this FAQ. I am starting to realize that my inner feelings and my perception of myself are priorities I need to address, rather than the nuances of my system.

You say many times to explore your feelings about a particular topic in your responses. How does one explore and reconcile (make peace ) with these feelings?

I feel like your reference to playing and replaying dramas out in my trading is and in my life is my daily existence.

In response to many inquiries about the work of the Trading Tribe, I am posting The Trading Tribe Process, to document some technology that seems to work. See the link above.

Tue, 6 May 2003

Bursting O