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Questions

(Quotes from Ed in Red)

Mon, 31 Oct 2005

Emotionless

Dear Ed,


I haven’t yet ordered your book, but I shall.

In reading the “Wizards” books I had been captivated by your story especially by the mention of the “How far ahead do you set your watch” observation you made to what’s-his-name.

It’s curious (well, it’s curious AND pervasive) how someone could possibly get the idea to lie to themselves (by making their clock lie) as a positive and constructive thing.

I have two items I’d like to bring up:

1) Because trading issues and techniques are ALWAYS running, at least on background, in my head I often take trading lessons and advice from all sorts of sources. Since I watch a lot of movies (but no TV!) I get lots of trading advice from them. I wonder if you or others do. Some examples are: “The Edge,” at great trading movie with many trading lessons. I particularly like the Alec Baldwin character’s whimpering and needing to be “gently” affirmed in the fact that he can’t “hope the helicopter will come back…” that’s just like having emotional reluctance to admit to a bad position. Actually, The Edge is filled with good trading lessons (and most work by David Mamet is guaranteed to raise one’s emotional IQ a few points at every viewing). “The Shawshank Redemption” sets a great example for all long term traders! Do you have any examples from movies you’d like to enlighten us with?

2) My own experiences in trading initially prompted me to delve into my emotional and motivational roots (what I like most about trading is its correlation with character development). I recognize that the following might be a bit presumptuous (sharing this thought without first having read your book), and I hope you’ll recognize that my rushed enthusiasm to post is due to how positively I feel about what is said on this site … but … what do you think about the idea of DROPPING emotional “k-nots” as you call them, instead of unwinding them?

Realizing that one’s personal issues have nothing to do with what happens in the market, and just following the market in an emotionless manner?

Your phrase, It's curious, conveys a judgment without naming the subject or revealing anything about how the subject feels.

Your suggestion to trade without emotions seems consistent with your communication style.

You might consider identifying the positive intentions of your feelings as an alternative to suppressing them.

This is the work of The Trading Tribe.

In this connection, you might consider re-writing your send in SVO-p. This might assist you in locating your feelings about clocks, lying, and even your feelings about having feelings.

Curiosity

might have emotional properties.

Clip: http://digilander.libero.it/Daisychain/

Sun, 30 Oct 2005

Approval and Embarrassment


Ed,

Here is my write-up. Thanks for your adroit process management last Thursday.


I entered the hot seat with a lot of emotions burbling under the surface after our tribe’s snapshot process earlier in the day. I couldn’t think of an issue but the tribe quickly found feelings in my hand and supported me to slam my hand on the chair more.

Other feelings came out including a clearing of my throat. The tribe encouraged me to feel this feeling more intensely. So I did. They brought a bucket as the throat clearing turned into gagging then into the feeling of throwing up. While I didn’t throw up, my tribe helped me stay with the feeling and move through it until it passed. I noticed that I enjoyed this feeling.

Other feelings came up including the feeling of “clamming up” during my earlier snapshot process that afternoon. I didn't like this feeling. The tribe helps me really celebrate and enjoy clamming up as much as I can - something that previously bothered me that I disliked. So I become the best clam I can and notice its positive intention - to protect me. This is a cool insight.

Our project manager makes an insightful catch while I do my process. He notices that I look up right after fully experiencing a feeling at one particular member, as if for approval.

When he mentions this, it reverberates within me. Indeed, I am on the floor facing a member that gives me approval earlier in the day during the snapshot process and away from a few members that were critical. Until then, I didn’t even realize I was doing this.

I feel some embarrassment. I experience this feeling and its passes. It is the first time in two and a half years of TTP that I feel embarrassment on the hot seat. There may be more of this feeling to feel as well. Indeed, as I write this I can tell that I don’t like the feeling – another k-not! But the searching for approval was an excellent catch and the process went in a new direction.

The process manager asks me how I feel about disapproval. I don’t feel anything. I don’t like it but I can’t feel it. The process manager asks me if I see the positive intention of disapproval. I say I can see nothing good about disapproval. The process manager tells the tribe that this is the essence of a k-not. All feelings have positive intentions. The fact that I cannot see any positive intention shows that this feeling is knotted up.

So I don’t feel anything about disapproval. I just feel blank. The process manager asks me if I don’t want to feel it and want to stop the process or that I can’t feel it but want to continue with the process.

Thank you for sharing your process.  Your report illustrates some of the subtle aspects of TTP.

Sometimes, in the Middle of a Process

 a Head Pops Up

Unwillingness to feel Embarrassment

can be a powerful motivator

Clips:

http://www.deadparrots.net/images/nekkidfolks.jpg

http://www.mtncartoons.com/hidden3.htm

Sun, 30 Oct 2005

The Workshop conveys the theory and practice of TTP in actual, live situations.  The content of the Workshop follows the current concerns and situations of the participants.

I invite participants to proclaim their wishes before and during the Workshop and I build the processes around these wishes.

Warning: Wishes Can Come True

Clip: http://dilbretta.blogs.com/photos/

Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:09:16 +0000
 

Sweeden

Fri, 28 Oct 2005

Risk-Free Maner

Dear Mr. Seykota,

I am very enlightened upon reading your correspondence (dated 16 Oct 2003) with a trader who demonstrated how to add to a position in a risk-free manner (he used his profitable trades with ABAX as an example). In fact, I've made simple Excel spreadsheets using the formulas that the gentleman explained.

Hungering for more knowledge in creating a trend following system, I wish to ask a corollary question.

Risk is the possibility of loss.  Risk (and everything else) inhabits the moment of now and disappears in the non-existing past and future.

I find no stock listing for "the future ABAX."

ABAX

Stocks Sometimes Seem Risk free

while we are showing a profit.

Wed, 26 Oct 2005

IV-TT Experience Resolves Negotiation Favorably

Hi Ed,

Last time on the hot seat, I taking in an issue about an important negotiation.  I do not have much of a sense of what my forms are so I simply turn it all over to the Process Manager and kind of put my mind to sleep during the process.  I do not recall much about my forms other than feeling peaceful at the end.

Since that meeting, I learn that one of the situations is resolving in my favor.  Perhaps the other side, on some level, feels my resolve and is not willing to pursue a weak position. Perhaps I do not need a lot of drama about it. At this point, I do not need to know.

Thank you for sharing your process.

Sometimes the Best Negotiating Strategy

is to resolve your own k-nots

Clip: http://www.sietc.com.cn/image/

commercial%20negotiation.jpg

Wed, 26 Oct 2005

Optical Illusion


Hello Ed

I think you might like this one

Kindest regards


http://www.patmedia.net/marklevinson/

Wed, 26 Oct 2005

IV-TT Experience Resolves Brother Situation

Hi Ed,


My previous hot seat experience ends with my body in a knot. I tell the tribe that I still have some issues with my brother and I want to take this onto the hot seat.

The process manager does a good job getting me into my forms. He asks me to role-play and show the tribe the feelings that my brother feels when he picks on me.

This one is easy for me. I sit straight up, puff up my chest, cross my arms, and tilt my chin upwards. The thoughts in my head are: I am going to hurt you and this pleases me.

The process manager then asks me to be me. This form entails me crouching over with my head down, shoulders squeezing together, and a look of discomfort on my face. The tribe notices that I am having a hard time expressing how I feel to my brother. With their encouragement, I start yelling shut the f___ up over and over.

Thank you for sharing your process.

People tend to reach out to clear with us when we untie our own k-nots.

Brothers

tend to connect on many levels.

Clip: http://www.missouritrout.com/

KidsFishingDayImages/2003/nick%20tucker%

Tue, 25 Oct 2005

Forbes List

Tue, 25 Oct 2005

Stuck-ness

Hi Ed,


Myself and the other members of the [City] Tribe at the end of our last meeting decide to collate an e-mail to you to give a view of an event that occurred.


Account from Hot Seat

I start my hot seat with pains in neck, especially left side, I tell the tribe that throughout the meeting to the point of my hot seat I sense a lack of will/focus to receive others, I feel withdrawn from the tribe and find it difficult to support them (which is a first, at all previous meeting I tend to stay on task and receive without any discouraging feelings at all just support for whatever form comes up). I tell them I feel very tense in shoulder neck area and they support me into taking this as an entry point, as my hot seat evolves I take on different forms, one of the forms involved short inhaling followed blowing air out intensely.

[Members of the tribe during my hot seat encourage me to keep on task with the form by subtlety mirroring what I am doing to encourage me to get into it some more, really feel it. We have found this to be a great way to support the hot seat, I should point out this mirroring tends to occur at the beginning of a hot seat just to help the hot seat get into forms, a typical and frequent example would be the tribe notes that the hot seat is making a repeated hand movement while talking about their issue and the tribe mirrors this movement and asks the hot seat if he is willing to do more of that as an entry point, as the hot seat starts to move more freely into forms the tribe tends support the rest of the process with verbal encouragement, except in this instance]

I continue to find new forms that I take on, I hear a lot of encouragement form receivers, I also hear one of the receivers breathing heavily just like I was in a previous form, anyhow the support from the rest of the tribe is very strong, so strong that I am able to stay on task and get into new forms, I find myself back into short inhaling followed by strong exhaling, which eventually out of nowhere leads me to tears, I find myself crying, I stay on task and go with it, I then sense a very strong tingling sensation in arms, and as I get into this feeling I start to sense tingling  in my fingertips, this gets very very powerful as I get more into it, I feel like I have a electric current humming through my fingers tips, a wonderfully enjoyable feeling I fully go with it thanks to the support of the tribe, when the feeling passes I am complete I am left feeling strong, confident and a greater sense of being.

When I finish my hot seat process I realize that one other members appears to be very “live into a process” , since members all look bewildered not at me but at the other member. I should point out that this member had his hot seat before mine, I recall thinking that this explained the breathing noise I had heard at a couple of points in my process, which somehow did not derail my process, I think largely due to the encouragement I got to stay on task with the rest of the tribe, they did an excellent job.


Receiver who gets “stuck in a form"

After check-in I say I am willing to take the hot seat.

My issue is about not listening to others and not asking for opinions, even if I know or strongly feel the situation is turning against me. I still keep to my opinion and find it hard to change. In some cases the result is that I am loosing. Example: On the way to the TTP I get on a train, which doesn't stop at one of the usual stops. I felt something's wrong. The train stops on the next stop but I don't bother to ask anyone if this is the right train, although this crossed my mind. I still could change here. I am building up the tension in me but I hope the train will stop. Then the train gains momentum and doesn't even slow down at my station. I feel "oh s---!!" The stories I was telling triggered a few forms. Started with gesturing, then I feel a lump in my head, it moves to one side, gets bigger, then it fades away, then I feel tension in my neck and shoulders. The receivers are supporting me to experience it fully. The tension goes away, but the lump in the head comes back. I experience it more until there’s no strong feelings
left.

Another person takes the hot seat. I am very focused and committed to receive. The sender goes thru his forms and one of them involves heavy breathing. I mirror the sender – breath in-breath out. I cheer him up: ”yeah, do more of that”, “ good, even more…” , and breath deeper myself. At some point my form of receiving is heavy breathing exclusively, no words spoken.

I notice something is waking up in my body. My arms and chest start to feel funny -> they swell, get bigger. I get a tingling, shivering, electricity-like sensation just beneath the skin. I am heavy breathing. My tingling sensation is getting stronger. I close my eyes and hear other receivers supporting the sender. I know I am a receiver, but my sensation is too big to ignore. I have an inner fight – my mind says ”stop”, my body says “Go!”. I think what the other receiver might think about me now. I don’t know if I should break this, or go with the flow. I choose go with the flow.

I hope the current sender finishes and I still feel strong to send then? But at some point I just decide to use the support that the current sender is getting, and experience my form. Now, my arms are stiff and hard as stone, I feel my blood is boiling in the chest and arms, I clench my hands. My upper lip is paralyzed, feels wooden. I bend forward. The current sender finished and I hear them asking “ are you all right?”, but I can’t reply. I feel like my mouth is gone, bit like in that scene from Matrix. Receivers start to support me, and my sensations get even stronger. I can’t swallow, I can’t talk, I can’t relax my hands. I bend forward until I fall of the chair and crush down on the ground, squeeze myself into a bundle. My stomach hurts, my chest burns, blood is boiling. I get a lot of support and carry on doing this. Now I relax one leg, the then the other. The tension slowly fades, I turn onto my back. I still feel the tingling in my chest and arms.

Be sure to finish one hot-seat process before beginning the next one.  Otherwise, you have two people "live" at the same time.

A live receiver is likely to interfere with the group process of receiving the sender.

To Listen To Others

it helps to be still yourself.

Mon, 24 Oct 2005

Mon, 24 Oct 2005

Anger in the Classroom

Eduardo:

I wrote you on Friday, 26 Aug 2005 giving thanks and talking a little bit about some issues I have with my family. In that letter I told you that I was going to [Country] on October to make a master degree in statistics.

Well, something bizarre just happen with that stuff. But first I will like to explain you what was my plan behind making such a degree.

As I told you I am from [Country], in this country as well as in perhaps in yours if you do not have a MBA or any master’s degree for that matter, you do not get a good job that allow you to save some good money to eventually go on your own.

The purpose I choose Statistics was:

1) I like it.

2) I need some of those tools to my testing stage that I am at the moment.

3) Since it is a master’s degree, then I probably would get a good job that would allow me to save as much as possible until I get something like $25K or $30K to start my trading.

Last Monday Oct. 17 was my first day in class and to my surprise the teacher start giving a brief look back of our math skills. It was a horrible surprise since my math background is only as far as Calculus I and the first day the teacher start a “review” assuming that everybody understands things of Calculus III I guess. What made me feel like a total idiot was that in the recess I start to socialize and talking my classmates about how tuff those exercises were. To my surprise they were all mathematicians and actuaries and that course is a requisite to become what they call here a Certified Statistician, totally new information at that moment.

I still do not understand why in the world they allow me in this class since I only have a degree in business and I suppose the admission department analyzed my academic record and there is not much math there.

Well, the next day in the morning I talked to the person in charge, I did not felt like blaming him because I think I am as guilty as him, we agree on another master’s degree about banking business.

I felt satisfied with that offer but I am still angry at myself and at him because it cost me $3K just to get to [Country] and to realize there was a misunderstanding. The other master’s degree that he offered me can be taken thru an Internet platform so coming to [Country] was useless.

Before choosing the statistics one I was making an MBA in my country that I decided to quit after like 4 months because I was not learning a thing out of it and believe it was better to save the money on something that I could learn from. Then, this one was way too much to my math background and my true interest was only to learn the “know how to use” of statistics instead of finding out how Sir Roland Fisher developed the F distribution.

I also have to say that beside anger I feel some fear since I am not use to jump out of things.

I can not agree more with Forrest Gump’s maxim:

I think your Fred is managing, very successfully, to get you into situations where you can experience your anger.

You can do the same thing in a Tribe meeting with less effort and less expense.

Anger

has a positive intention

In a k-not,

anger entrains drama.

Clip: http://mirecc.stanford.edu/content/

ptsd/anger_management.htm

Mon, 24 Oct 2005

OK.

Shouting

is just another form

Clip: http://www.firstpulseprojects.net/

Sun, 23 Oct 2005

IV TT Experience - Directing and Encouraging

Chief Ed,

Thank you for letting me be a pollinator at the IV TT. I had come up with the intention of to be in the hot seat with numerous live issues. The sessions – snapshot and especially the TTP - were of marathon length lasting almost 13 hours. At the end of the night (almost the next morning) I was mentally elated but physically exhausted like a boxer who had just won a prizefight. (In one of my forms, I was boxing – expressing my anger and frustration of not dealing with my issue(s) sooner in my life.)

I had been up 22 hours and then had an intense hot seat experience and I also managed the process for the first time. Then for the CPI coming out in 2 hours I woke up with less than an hour of "nap". After the CPI number, though I was physically exhausted, I was sharp mentally. The morning after the TTP session, I stuck to my system and amazingly executed my system after the CPI! Needless to say, it was a profitable trade.

In my hot seat, I suppose I was experiencing anger, frustration, sadness and regrets. I have always had a problem in expressing my anger throughout my life and that has made me a victim in many situations – personal and professional.

I always judged that expressing my true feelings if I thought they would hurt others and expressing my anger were not the right way to behave around everyone - superiors (teachers, parents, bosses etc) or equals (friends, colleagues, siblings etc) or juniors (employees, nephews, students etc). I felt that expressing anger was "losing self control", "egotistical" and "not taking the high ground". In my hot seat session, I must have thrown 100's of punches, jabs, uppercuts etc. And in one of the other forms I was screaming at the top of my lungs, overextending my vocal chords – again to express anger ad regrets.

The person managing my hot seat process "directed" me in some of my forms. Such "direction" is very untraditional in a TTP.

In a TTP session, the sender develops the forms and the receivers just encourage amplifying and enjoying the forms. I was a bit irritated at first at the process manager for "directing" but I suppose after pouring a lot more energy into the form upon his directing I must have exhausted "holding back the anger" feeling completely and begun to feel comfortable – if not enjoy – the feeling.

Thank you for sharing your process.

In Music, in TTP and in Life

The lines between

directing and following and encouraging

disappear

at the zero point

Clip: http://www.csbsju.edu/music/ensembles/

Orchestra/Photos/2001-2002/David%20

Sun, 23 Oct 2005

Wants a Mentor

Mr. Seykota:


I am interested in learning about TT how it works and the investment strategy used. There does not appear to be a group in Ohio. The nearest established ones to me are in Indiana or Chicago. I would lean toward the Chicago group since it appears to be bigger.

Currently, I belong to group of people that are investors here in Cleveland, but none have the record of success you have. More to the point, except for one of them, they do not have a system with rules that seems to make sense.

They alternate between technical and fundamental trade philosophies. For the last seven years, I have used a simple set of rules from James O’Shaugnessy to invest. The system is based on a low price to sales ratio (<1.5) and the stock having a strong relative strength over the previous year. The system has worked well for me. It has yielded gains that have averaged about 10-12% year after transaction costs. I had a drawdown in the crash, but I kept my losses to 11% and got out and stayed out for over a year while the market went against me. However, to reach my retirement goals, I have to earn on the average double those rates for the next ten years.

I have experimented with the CANSLIM philosophy for the last 8 months and although the system seems to work in a positively trending market, we have what I would call a choppy market. Furthermore, the rule about accepting at most an 8% loss as a philosophy, while good, seems to be, in this sort of market, something market makers take advantage of to washout the amateurs like me.

I wound up setting my stop-losses wider or narrower depending upon the market action of the stock over the previous two month period. I also realized, to be successful, I need to understand how to short equities as well as go long since I am losing out on considerable profit potential by only using one side of the equation so to speak.

I place my stop losses when I buy my positions and have learned to watch what happens in the first 30 to 60 minutes of the day and the last 30 top 60 minutes of the previous day to understand how the market is behaving before taking a position. Overall, I am down a little (-$1,350), the loss includes all transaction costs ($9.95/trade) as well as the monthly costs of the two services I use, Telechart ($30/month), Vector Vest ($60/month) and StockTiming ($12/month). I use the services to get ideas, look at the market trend, and look at technical indicators. I have made 27 trades over this time period each averaging $6700. My trading portfolio for this experiment is $60,000, and my greatest loss was $1023.81.

I want to improve my investment performance, to do that I have to work with people that are successful. I like the idea of trading, but if I am going to improve at it, and make the best trades I can, I need help. I need to learn a system that has a proven track record, that is adaptable to market conditions, and that I feel “comfortable” with. I know that trading has it ups and downs and I accept those, I want a system that has more ups than downs. Right now I am only trading stocks, and only long.

I need to learn to go short and be successful at it. Can you help me achieve my goals?

At the investment club I am a member of, I share ideas with others and will help others anyway I can. However, as you suggest, “We all get out of trading what we want,” and some people want the thrill of it all. I want to make the best trades I can with the best system I can find that makes sense to me. I need to be able to understand the system so that I can test it and feel comfortable with it.

Sat, 22 Oct 2005

Relative Agreements

Hi Ed !

The IV tribe meets in the afternoon for a Snapshot Session. I get lots of comments on my snapshot. i feel no need to change it because it works, and so consider this session like a precious stone being put in a tumbler with some abrasives, to polish it to a more beautiful finish.

In the evening, each of the 11 tribe members is intent on taking a hotseat. I resolved all issues of keeping agreements with people. After i notice that, i get an email from a relative pointing out that she doesn't believe i have kept clear agreements with her.

Thank you for sharing your process.

Family

The Essential Tribe

Clip: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzlrietb/

gallery/gwb/Relatives.JPG

Sat, 22 Oct 2005

A Hit With The Wife

Dear Mr. Seykota,

 I take your advice (FAQ July 7, 2005):

 "...You might also listen for some clues about your issues in your Wife's remarks. If you don't like what she says, or feel like changing her, you might consider taking those feelings to your Tribe as well..."

Thank you for sharing your process.

When You Get to the Zero Point

in your Tribe Meeting

you don't have to take

your work home with you.

Clip: http://www.saao.ac.za/~wpk/

Sat, 22 Oct 2005

Early and Late


Ed,

Again thanks for all you do.

Wow, I get a gift from another tribe member as he deals with his time management system. How I manage time affects my life including trading. His system used to be often being late, now rarely happens.

Thank you for sharing your process.

In The Garden, and In Trading

the early worm

gets the bird.

Clip: http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/

Tower/1133/worm.gif

Sat, 22 Oct 2005

Fri, 21 Oct 2005

Almaden Tribe

Hi Ed!

I'd like to run my own trading tribe here in Almaden.

We would meet every other Thursday, with your permission.

Welcome

Almaden

California

Fri, 21 Oct 2005

Why Trading Instruments


I came across Michael Covel's book, read it, and connected with the trend following methodologies.