21 - 31, 2005
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from Ed in Red)
Mon, 31 Jan 2005
insufficient Capital, and Fishing
I was entertaining some thoughts about starting to trade futures and this
mpeg arrived in my mail box illuminating insufficient capital.
... seems a bit fishy to me.
Mon, 31 Jan 2005
Dear Mr. Seykota,
I have tried to
contact the Adelaide Tribe without success. Please advise if there are other
contacts in the city of Adelaide, South Australia.
I trade futures
with a passion and have been doing it by myself for the past 10 years.
I took your advice
from articles and read as many books on psychology and I have been trying to
find a book by Martin Jaynes Evolution of Conscious Mind Bi Karmel State
no such luck.
Could you please
point me in the right direction with a source. I do not know of any other
futures trader in Adelaide, I have spoken to a couple over the years from
interstate but they have dropped out.
So there you have
I thought a bit of
contact may help.
the Tribe directory for a listing of active Tribes.
you do not find a Tribe in your area, you can start one yourself.
might try: The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral
Mind (1976, 1990), by Princeton University psychologist Julian Jaynes.
area opposite Wernicke's Bundle might support the Under Fred Network and
To speak a word
that is heard, information must first get to the primary auditory cortex.
The primary auditory cortex sends to the posterior speech area, including
Wernicke's area. From Wernicke's area, information travels to Broca's area,
then to the Primary Motor Cortex.
Mon, 31 Jan 2005
Thank you for your reply to my email from Tue 01/04. And for your
If I gather investors whose total funds exceed 250,000 USD, figure
out yearly maximum draw-down and uncle point for for the whole investment,
can you accept such funds, trade them and divide the profits between you and
the investing group?
I can deal with
splitting the profits and losses among investors according to risk they are
I am reading a great book "Power vs. force" by David R. Hawkins.
The book clarifies the evolution of consciousness. You are Power and I
Thank you for doing great work.
you want to collect funds from others and place them with investment
managers, you might do well to study the laws and regulations to make sure
you stay well within their bounds.
Money is Fairly Easy
skill, commitment and integrity.
Mon, 31 Jan 2005
I would like to invest some of my retirement funds in a trend following
Can you give me
any names of companies that would handle smaller investments?
Thanks for your website and any help.
this point, FAQ does not endorse people or commercial products.
can find lots of traders who claim to have systems and lots of traders who
claim to follow their systems.
am planning a certification program for traders who actually have trading
systems - and who actually follow them.
Sun, 30 Jan 2005
Don't know if you have heard this one ...
Q: What is the least-used phrase in the English language?
A: "Is that the banjo player's Porsche?"
can locate a banjo player's porch by following the sweet sound of live
Sun, 30 Jan 2005
Dear Mr. Seykota
Thank you so much for your ongoing gift of the website - it is akin to a
golfer's getting free lessons from Tiger Woods (whose recent breakout from a
performance drawdown might be a good omen for investors?)
My question concerns 'trading the equity curve.' Many prominent trend
followers, including [Famous Trading Coach Names], have recommended adding
to trading levels when rigorously tested trend following systems are in a
In my own computer
testing with trend following systems (whose worst drawdowns over time are in
the 30% range) performance is enhanced if trading levels are raised when the
drawdown approaches this level (say 15-20%), especially when combined with a
fall below zero in the 12-month Rolling Rate of Return.
historical data support such action, I worry that it might be counter-trend
(in effect adding to losers), along with the danger of survivorship bias
(adding to a system that no longer worked would of course be disastrous).
Do you have any
thoughts of the subject (and its corollary of lightening up after a steep
are a lot easier to see after they happen than while they are happening.
you have a consistent way to add to trading levels during a drawdown, then
you have a way to include the method into your system testing.
might complete the idea of buying into equity curve drawdowns with a plan
for cutting the loss in case the equity just keeps declining, arguably
faster with a bigger position.
not perform well on the field.
Sun, 30 Jan 2005
The Remote AHA
Thanks again for thinking of me to participate in the meeting, I enjoyed the
I believe your
insight into the simultaneous release of tension when one party dissolves
the issue has turned out to be true, as my daughter, who had been vaguely
avoiding me for a couple of days, acted as if nothing had ever happened when
I returned home!
to be part of the workings
the Under Fred Network.
Sun, 30 Jan 2005
I benefit from TTP by improving my feeling skills, practicing assertive
communication and the attitude of letting go. In short, I cut frustrating
situations short, hold the satisfying ones and live with the possibilities.
I define it in a word: clarity.
Sat, 29 Jan 2005
It is very generous of you to make yourself available to others.
In a nutshell, I was a proprietary, fundamentally-driven, long-biased U.S.
equities trader for about seven years ('94-01) at a small NYC asset mgmt.
firm who, like many, made a pile of cash in the late '90s and then gave back
much of it.
Although I always
knew that the returns of this time would not last forever, I tried my best
to aggressively make as much as I could while I could.
during the best of dizzyingly-profitable stretches, I was always a nervous
wreck, as I knew that below all the noise of the markets and the nonstop
pontificating of the pundits on CNBC (not to mention your cab driver) I had
no definable trading strategy, and that this would hurt me in the long haul.
Now, I have gotten myself to the point where I can confidently say that
Trend Following and I are made for each other. I want to avoid making
missteps in the remaining steps toward actually employing a system.
One obvious choice
is [Name's] Trend Following course. Would you recommend this?
Have you heard of
[Other Guy's] trading course? Is that one reputable? In other words, what
would you recommend I do as a next step? I am eager to commit myself.
Many thanks for your attention. I look foreword to sharing my knowledge
someday as you do.
does not endorse people or commercial products. See
Sat, 29 Jan 2005
I am very interested in the ideas put across on Ed's Website. I have a dual
profession - working at [Brokerage House] and also I am a psychotherapist
with a particular interest in the unconscious. Needless to say, the workshop
seems like a great merge of two great interests of mine.
A few questions ...
Are there ever workshops that are more than just 1 1/2 days, and more
Once a workshop has been taken, is Ed available for any follow up guidance
via email? If so, does he charge for this?
Are there workshops lined up for 2005? (I'm assuming the November one listed
on the website was for 2004). 2006? Are they always in the same place, or
does the location vary?
I appreciate your responses, and would love to venture into this arena as my
trading skills are greatly lacking.
I lost hundreds of
thousands of dollars several years ago - which I had carefully built up over
20 years. Now I have a small base to work with, more determination to learn
- but am still making costly mistakes. It would be wonderful to feel more
able to use my intelligence and inner resources to manage money effectively.
this site for information on up-coming Workshops.
Ground Rules Page for information on private consulting.
am planning to announce a Workshop schedule, a Workshop Trainer
Certification Program, a Trader Certification Program and a Book, all in
Sat, 29 Jan 2005
Please send me
information about any upcoming seminars or training programs you will be
offering for traders.
announce Workshops on this site from time to time. The tentative dates for
the next workshop in Reno are May 6 - 8, 2005.
Sat, 29 Jan 2005
"A great trader pointed out to me one day the importance of who you
meet in your live. I met a genius who care so much about others and, his
great insight change completely my live and my trading".
His name is Ed Seykota."
Fri, 28 Jan 2005
My First Hot
The Vancouver, B.C. tribe has the first meeting on January 7th.
After an initial period of introductions (check-in), we all agree to begin
the Trading Tribe Process.
I choose to be on the hot seat.
I am on the hot seat for a total of 2 or 3 hours, but my conscious
mind perceives that I am on the hot seat for less than an hour.
I start sending with my eyes closed and sitting in a relaxed upright
position. After some initial questioning from the primary receiver, I notice
that I feel hot in my upper torso and my hands. I feel my feet are cold. The
receivers then ask me to amplify the heat and invite me to feel hot in my
entire body including my feet. I “try” to make my feet hot but I cannot.
I notice that my hands are still hot and are now sweating.
The receivers notice that I join my hands together repetitively. They then
ask me to press my hands together tightly. I press them together and notice
that they seem to be locked together. I say that I want to separate them. I
try and I cannot. After some struggling I manage to separate my hands. I
feel some release of tension (and I vaguely recall a passing AHA which I no
longer remember now); I feel calm.
The receivers ask how I feel now. I notice that I am still hot in my
upper torso and my feet are now hot too. My whole body is hot. I feel
annoyed. I vacillate between feeling annoyed and frustrated. The receiver
asks how I feel. I say that “I don’t know”. Another form appears: I
repetitively tug at my shirtsleeves. So the receivers encourage me to tug at
my shirtsleeves. I continue to tug at the sleeves. I tug and I tug and I
tug. I ask the receivers “Can I stop now? I’m getting tired of tugging.
I want to stop tugging.” I do not wait for a response; I stop tugging on
The receivers ask for my feelings now. I no longer feel hot in my
body. I say that my stomach hurts. The receivers ask for me to clarify
the feeling. I feel a solid, fiery lump in my stomach. I vacillate
between feeling annoyed, uncertain and sad. When I feel sad, tears well up
in my eyes and my nose starts to run. The receivers encourage me to stay
with the sad feeling. I lower my chin to my chest. I am sad. I start
crying with sobs and tears. I stay with the crying for a while; I suddenly
have a realization (AHA) and then start laughing. (Now I don’t remember
what that AHA is about.) I stop crying. I open my eyes.
Our tribe begins with the check-out and we discuss a few aspects about the
process. We agree on a tentative date and time for the next meeting. I
commit to attend the next meeting.
I wish that I have a transcript of the entire session to submit to FAQ. It
is hard to “record” the entire session in my conscious mind (to relay to
FAQ) when I am focused on my feelings and forms. I commit to continue the
work of sending and receiving.
Tribes are able to complete Hot Seat processes in less than one hour.
longer seems consistent with receivers asking distracting questions and
otherwise engaging the sender intellectually.
might consider training the receivers to limit communications with the
sender to encouraging the somatic elements of the form.
expect to have a Workbook for Training Senders and Receivers by March 31.
Fri, 28 Jan 2005
I ask that you consider accepting my sincere apology, for offending you.
You are a great teacher, and I deeply regret any offense.
might consider taking your feelings of offending others into TTP as an entry
Fri, 28 Jan 2005
You seem to be
weary of the possible results of positive thinking.
However, you write
frequently about intention and the results that follow it.
Can you please
decipher between positive thinking and intention in accordance with TTP.
Is the intention
that you describe similar to the intention that Dr. Wayne Dwyer writes and
your thinking into positive and negative implicitly places judgment on the
tend to manifest as dramas.
intention does not require fractionating thoughts into positive and
would be the authority on his writings; I suggest you direct your question
about him to him.
Positive and Negative
to entrain the negatives
Fri, 28 Jan 2005
I was thinking about experiencing your feelings and extrapolating their
Once you arrive at
what you perceive to be the good intention of a feeling how can you be
certain that this is indeed your feeling's intention?
Also, would Cognitive Behavioral Therapy mesh well with TTP and how much
emphasis, if any, does the process depend on thought recognition? Thank you
for your insight.
might take your desire to be certain into TTP as an entry point.
certainly one way
Thu, 27 Jan 2005
Self-Control & Self-Discipline
Here is an interesting article:
The Lowdown on High Self-Esteem
Thinking you're hot stuff isn't the promised cure-all.
By Roy F. Baumeister - January 25, 2005
Roy F. Baumeister, a professor in the department of psychology at Florida
State University, is the author of "The Cultural Animal," just
published by Oxford University Press.
Does low self-esteem lie at the root of all human suffering, failure and
evil? When I ran my first research study on self-esteem in 1973, that
certainly seemed to be the case. Psychologists everywhere were persuaded
that if only we could help people to accept and love themselves more, their
problems would gradually vanish and their lives would flourish. They would
even treat each other better.
Not surprisingly, California led the way, establishing a task force for
exploring ways to boost healthy self-esteem to solve personal and social
problems. The task force members - like many of us - were undeterred by the
weakness and ambiguity of the evidence suggesting a benefit in boosting
self-esteem; we all believed the data would come along in good time.
Then-Assemblyman John Vasconcellos (and many other experts) predicted that
self- esteem could solve, or at least help solve, such problems as crime,
teen pregnancy, pollution, school failure and underachievement, drug abuse
and domestic violence. (Vasconcellos even expressed the hope that higher
self-esteem would one day help balance the state budget - a prospect
predicated on the observation that people with high self-regard earn more
than others and therefore pay more in taxes.)
A generation - and many millions of dollars - later, it turns out we may
have been mistaken.
Five years ago,
the American Psychological Society commissioned me and several other experts
to wade with an open mind through the enormous amount of published research
on the subject and to assess the benefits of high self-esteem.
Here are some of our disappointing findings. High self- esteem in
schoolchildren does not produce better grades. (Actually, kids with high
self-esteem do have slightly better grades in most studies, but that's
because getting good grades leads to higher self-esteem, not the other way
In fact, according
to a study by Donald Forsyth at Virginia Commonwealth University, college
students with mediocre grades who got regular self-esteem strokes from their
professors ended up doing worse on final exams than students who were told
to suck it up and try harder.
Self-esteem doesn't make adults perform better at their jobs either. Sure,
people with high self-esteem rate their own performance better - even
declaring themselves smarter and more attractive than their low self-esteem
peers - but neither objective tests nor impartial raters can detect any
difference in the quality of work.
Likewise, people with high self-esteem think they make better impressions,
have stronger friendships and have better romantic lives than other people,
but the data don't support their self-flattering views. If anything, people
who love themselves too much sometimes annoy other people by their defensive
or know-it-all attitudes. Self-esteem doesn't predict who will make a good
leader, and some work (including that of psychologist Robert Hogan writing
in the Harvard Business Review) has found humility rather than self-esteem
to be a key trait of successful leaders.
It was widely believed that low self-esteem could be a cause of violence,
but in reality violent individuals, groups and nations think very well of
themselves. They turn violent toward others who fail to give them the
inflated respect they think they deserve. Nor does high self-esteem deter
people from becoming bullies, according to most of the studies that have
been done; it is simply untrue that beneath the surface of every obnoxious
bully is an unhappy, self-hating child in need of sympathy and praise.
High self-esteem doesn't prevent youngsters from cheating or stealing or
experimenting with drugs and sex. (If anything, kids with high self-esteem
may be more willing to try these things at a young age.)
There were a few areas where higher self-esteem seemed to bring some
benefits. For instance, people with high self- esteem are generally happier
and less depressed than others, though we can't quite prove that high
self-esteem prevents depression or causes happiness. Young women with high
self- esteem seem less susceptible to eating disorders. In some studies
(though not all), people with high self-esteem bounce back from misfortune
and trauma faster than others.
High self-esteem also promotes initiative. People who have it are more
likely to speak up in a group, persist in the face of failure, resist other
people's advice or pressure and strike up conversations with strangers. Of
course, initiative can cut both ways: One study on bullying found that
self-esteem was high among the bullies and among the people who intervened
to resist them. Low self-esteem marked the victims of bullying.
In short, despite the enthusiastic embrace of self-esteem, we found that it
conferred only two benefits. It feels good and it supports initiative. Those
are nice, but they are far less than we had once hoped for, and it is very
questionable whether they justify the effort and expense that schools,
parents and therapists have put into raising self-esteem.
After all these years, I'm sorry to say, my recommendation is this:
Forget about self-esteem and concentrate more on self-control and
Recent work suggests this would be good for the individual and good for
society - and might even be able to fill some of those promises that
self-esteem once made but could not keep.
wonder how the good professor intends to implement more self-control and
for Controlling Children
in and out of fashion.
for empowering children
much stay the same.
Thu, 27 Jan 2005
I contributed proclamation #20 for the "2003 Review and
Proclamation" section of your FAQ. I described my intention to enjoy a
greater sense of peace in my life.
Through TTP, I
increasingly enjoy this peace each day. Through the "hot seat"
process I realize two actions that lead to a destruction of my peace: (1)
Straying away from the moment of NOW by lingering on past mistakes, or
bringing worries from the non-existent future to the present; and (2) trying
to change people rather than accepting them without judgment.
Through TTP, I
know that I must live in the NOW in everyday thought and action. Moreover I
realize that my efforts to change people are ultimately attempts to make
them more like me!
Resolving these two issues has led to greater peace in all aspects
of my life. Intention truly equals results!
P.S. I realize that TTP is a rather simple concept, once you get to the Aha!
stage. It's all about being at peace with yourself and having total
acceptance of who you are. Easier said than done, of course.
you. Look for the book to appear March 31.
Thu, 27 Jan 2005
Responsibility Model and
Is the Responsibility Model consistent with the Private Property Rule?
For let's say John
takes away and uses his sister Mary's pen before asking for Mary's
permission and subsequently loses the pen.
It seems to me
that John violates PPR and so he is "at fault" because he
"causes" the event, and so he is the one to blame and take
responsibility for his wrongdoing.
But from the Responsibility Model, there is a larger complex network (e.g.
where Mary places her pen, where Mary is at the moment John takes the pen,
etc.), and that holds the responsibility for the event.
I like PPR, and at the same time my 2005 proclamation is Right Livelihood,
which you define in the Glossary as living the Responsibility Model. I'd
appreciate if you can elaborate how I can follow both without
contradicting the other. Many thanks !!
might take your desire to avoid contradiction into TTP as an entry point.
Road to Wisdom
passes through paradox.
Thu, 27 Jan 2005
It seems that some
people who visit your site are interested in [trading] rules, but are
hesitant to pay for them.
I wonder what
would happen if they ... [could afford] ... rules?
Ten Commandments and other important sets of rules are "free."
the character to follow them may require considerable investment and a
people cannot afford to operate without rules.
Restriction or Support
success in trading
depend on how you choose
view the rules.
Thu, 27 Jan 2005
We have two new members joining our tribe and last night was their first
meeting. After it ended and I waited for the train, all of a sudden it hit
me - I actually stick through things much longer, in a different way.
Remember one of my major issues is my inability to stick to things. During
the Breathwork Weekend, I can't even make a measurable commitment that has a
deadline, that I need you to help me make one: Commit to not making any
commitment for the week, and every commitment I made I make sure I break
But what is surprising to me as I was pacing on the subway: most (if not
all) people in my first tribe meeting (June 2003) have stopped TTP
altogether, yet somehow I just stick to it and meet new people.
My job. My first one in fact. I've stayed with the same bank for over four
and a half years now, long by Wall Street standard. Among the people in my
group on my first day of work, only one person (the Managing Director) is
still with the firm.
My fiancée. She's my first and only girlfriend, and we've been dating for
almost nine (!) years now.
In many ways
other than having a wedding itself, we feel more "married" than
many of our friends who are actually married after dating for a year or two.
My stay in the United States. I have just received the official letter to do
an interview in May so that I can become a US citizen. When I came to this
country in 1993, I never thought I'd stay this long.
So as I look back at the major events in my life, surprisingly, I actually
stick to things for quite long, much longer than I thought I would, and this
is surprising to me because I always think that I have difficulty
As I try to find out what these events have in common, even more
surprisingly, or perhaps confusingly, the only commonality among all these
things that I manage to stick to is that 1) I never thought about how long
they would last when I started, and as such, 2) there is no particular end
time in the first place, and so 3) there is really no commitment.
I know they may
end some day (my girlfriend, my tenure at the firm, and even my consistent
TTP participation), but those never really cross my mind. Perhaps as you
said, the 'ending' is so far out there in the non-existent future that I
don't even bother.
But now, I say it is confusing because it is counter-intuitive to my
conscious mind. I thought the power of commitment is to have a clear
deadline, that you consciously decide and proclaim that you want to achieve
X and stick to it no matter what.
And when the
deadline comes, you can choose to recommit if appropriate. But the actual
result is, to the things that I actually stick to, I never really think of
committing to them while failing so many times to the things that I've tried
to commit to.
Now am I just "going with the flow" in those cases? Or am I
just creating some excuse for myself to avoid making commitment? This is
important for me and I truly appreciate your insights, sir.
... and in many ways, other than having a low score, golfers who play at a
mediocre level for nine years can feel more "world class"
than pros who tour for a living.
might take your commitment issues to your Tribe.
is being there,
in the now.
works for parenting
it works for trading.
Thu, 27 Jan 2005
Hong Kong TT
I am interested to
start a tribe in HK for the Greater China region.
little democracy, little regulation
a 15% tax rate
most other systems.
Wed, 26 Jan 2005
I found this video great food for thought regarding the 'media' going
It takes 8 minutes to play, but I thought it was worth the time.
good cure for the tendency to believe fundamental predictions: save the
prediction and re-play it in about 10 years.
one study fundamentalists don't publish is, interestingly, the one for which
they have access to the best information, namely: a study of the
accuracy of their own predictions.
Stature of the Economist
typically a function
the Spirit of the Times.
J. Samuels Portrait Collection at Duke University."
Tue, 25 Jan 2005
TTP + Golf = 8
I recently had the opportunity to share some of our tribe TTP work with a
close friend of mine who is on the Nationwide Golf Tour.
Revealing that the
feelings I run away from tend to run my life brought up many questions from
I told him about
my hot seat experience where I was encouraged to really get into my feeling
How liberating it
was to totally let myself go! I explained that once I reached the "zero
point," where I totally exhausted the feeling of sadness, I felt that I
had gotten to "the zone," where nothing could really knock me off
my game. I had no judgments about myself, others, anything ... I was just
My friend thought
this was pretty cool and he asked if it could be of help to him as he was
struggling with his game. He was missing cuts by one or two shots each week
and running out of money to play the tour.
I asked him what
he was most afraid of and FAILURE was the first thing that came up. I then
asked him if he could get into that somatic feeling of failure and describe
it to me ... just the sensations, not the judgments about it.
I encouraged him
to crank up those feelings of redness in the cheeks, sweaty palms, and the
feeling to "go to the bathroom ..." I had him follow those
feelings and sensations all around his body wherever they might lead him.
At first he
resisted but eventually he got comfortable with these feelings. They weren't
so bad after all. I am quite sure he did not get to the zero point, but he
was more accepting of these sensations as they were his true self.
We did not mention
anything about the golf swing (fundamentals be damned!) during this
conversation. He was running out of time and had to leave for the course for
his second round.
His first round
score was 74 which put him in danger of missing another cut. He called me
later that evening to report his lowest score of the year ... a 64 and he
made the cut by one shot!
He started out
poorly that afternoon, a couple bogeys in the first few holes, had those
"bad" feelings of FAILURE come up and this time he just
"experienced" them, and they passed through.
He didn't confront
them, didn't run from them, just felt them as he did earlier in the day
during our phone conversation. He then went about his bushiness and birdied
eight more holes (par 70 course)! He made his best check of the year
after a 3000 mile TTP session!
I thought this was pretty cool. I think you may be on to something here, Ed.
Thanks for all your help.
Wonder Where Those Birdies Are
Tue, 25 Jan 2005
Trading Tribe Member Philosophy
I'm happy to report that, as I revisit the TTP page, I have fully accepted
ALL of the trading tribe member philosophy as you've listed. Whereas
when I started almost two years ago I have hesitancy about some of them
(e.g. I believe in holistic evolution), I can now accept them quite easily,
philosophy sounds more like DIM than TTP.
might take your feeling of accepting philosophy, as a substitute for
experiencing feelings, to your Tribe as an entry point.
of the Philosophy
the Flat Earth Society
Tue, 25 Jan 2005
Off (Jan 9)
Your reply strikes me. Yes, it is clear to me now that the top three goals
all seem to come from wanting to control (or I see it as wanting the person
to change / become to an ideal I like)
However, isn't it necessary though? Just like you cannot have a meaningful
conversation with an alcoholic or drug addict when he is drunk or dosed, we
cannot assume an infant to make responsible and proper decisions.
An infant needs
his parents' to make certain decisions for him (or 'control'??) in order to
survive. For example, a parent needs to "control" his infant son
when they walk across the street. He holds his hands and makes sure the son
is on the side until they see the green light to go, and that all cars have
stopped. If he just lets the son walk across without following traffic
rules, the son may get knocked down by a car, right?
Gradually, the child assumes more and full responsibility in decision making
for himself, and eventually ends up making decisions for his parents when
they get old. I thought that's the life's cycle, isn't it?
So I am curious what's your take - would you recommend absolutely no
"control" to a child and let him be as freely as he can be?
How much 'control'
do you impose on your children? Is teaching a form of 'control' because in a
way, the goal is to morph the other into the person you'd like them to
be? Is it inevitable that any kind of relationship involves certain
degree of conformation, whether we're aware or not? Many thanks, I truly
appreciate your answers.
might consider taking your parenting issues to your Tribe as an entry point.
approach to molding children
to assisting them
discover and become
they want to be.
Mon, 24 Jan 2005
More TT Pee
More (weird) questions. In my strange experience at night, I feel a strong
urge to go to pee. But I know that the moment I get up, I effectively get
rid of all those other feelings (cold numbness, heaviness, burning heat)
that I want to fully experience.
So I stay with it,
even with the feeling of really wanting to go to pee (it actually fits quite
well because I am trying to experience a host of uncomfortable feeling). I
remember you saying that wanting to use the bathroom is just another
feeling, and sometimes it may indicate an intention to avoid the real
feelings we're working on.
But here's the part I don't understand as I went through this last night. I
think I fully understand the position intention of the feeling of wanting to
pee - when your body has excess liquid poison, it is the signal to get you
to get rid of them. (Just like when you feel thirsty, it is a signal to get
some fluid into your body)
However, what I
was doing effectively is to ignore that signal (because I don't want to lose
the other "uncomfortable" feelings), and of course it gets even
more intense, REALLY urging me to go, until I finally end up coming out of
other feelings and go.
So here's the part I am confused. Let's say in a regular hot seat session,
you are experiencing a lot of other feelings that you don't like, and
working to resolve them to get to aha.
Then suddenly the
feeling of wanting to go to the bathroom comes up. Do you intensify it by
not letting yourself go, or do you go because that is how you "go with
the flow" of your feelings. After all, whatever feeling that comes up
is the exact feeling we need to feel, and when your body tells you that you
need to pee, you have to pee otherwise ignoring that signal only makes the
body intensifies more - to get rid of the refuse that your kidneys just
can't hold anymore. But if you go, don't you fall into Fred's drama for you
to avoid experiencing some really deep feelings? So as weird and awkward as
it sounds for me an adult to ask, to pee or not to pee, that is the question
I have a hunch to include the feeling of wanting to go to the bathroom as
another form and try to integrate it with the other feelings. That is what I
tried to do last night, but perhaps my intention isn't strong enough (DIM
too), I just get discouraged by your teasing, and end up going. By the time
I come back, all the other feelings are gone and I just fall right back to
sleep. Hmmm ...
continuation with the DIM process continues to get DIM results.
might have a look at what is standing between you and committing with your
Tribe to get you through your feelings.
24 Jan 2005
Back in Apr 29, 2004 I wrote you about an experience I had regarding a
sudden cramp while sleeping in the middle of the night. Last night, I had
another very strange experience.
I am asleep when somehow I gain some mild consciousness. I still have my
eyes closed but I notice that somehow I have my right arm above my head. It
must be in that position for a while, because it starts feeling numb and
heavy. Logically I think that it's because the arm is up there and the lack
of blood circulation gives the numbness.
Well, that feeling evolves to a lot of other uncomfortable feeling. Some of
it cold, some of it hot. The forearm that was numb is cold and heavy, but my
right leg and the upper arm where it touches the forehead is burning hot. I
am feeling some chest pain too. Oh, and I feel like I really want to pee.
Overall, it is just a VERY uncomfortable feeling.
In my mind, I am thinking TTP. It has become second nature to me that
anytime I find a feeling that I don't like, I want to experience it. Since I
have committed to live in the responsive model, I strongly believe that it
is no accident that I end up in such an awkward position and experience all
these weird feelings. More importantly, I believe my sub-conscious
(especially since I was sleeping) leads me to this, and I truly want to
experience the feeling fully and get the message it contains.
I stay with that position, despite how uncomfortable it is. The arm becomes
VERY heavy, the heat intensifies, the numbness becomes unbearable, and the
chest pain is on and off. I can even hear my tribe members cheering for
me to hang on, and I just stay with this pose without moving, even trying to
get back to sleep just like that.
I know I can get rid of all these discomfort by simply moving my arms back
to its normal position. But I feel that that would mean avoiding the
feeling. So I just leave it as is. There is a moment I thought I am OK with
the feeling, but then it (mixture of heat, numbness, cold, and heaviness at
various places) intensifies, and I get back to "I don't really like
this feeling," especially I really want to pee.
I remember during the Breath Work weekend you mention that even the feeling
of wanting to pee is just a feeling, and if we can accept even that feeling.
There is definitely a part inside me that wants to FULLY experience all the
feelings to the point until I can accept them all. At some point I feel
determined to do so, WHATEVER IT TAKES.
Well, that's when I get into resistance. I hear your voice, Ed. Remember
during the Breathwork weekend, you raised questions to us on scenarios where
it would make it REALLY difficult to truly honor our goals?
I hear your trying
to see how far I can go. You use various methods to intensify the feeling,
and I stick through it. I say I would stay with this feeling, and you ask
how long. I say until I can come to terms with it, and you ask,
"Really?" I say yes, and that I am going to sleep with it. Then
you say that isn't accepting (but avoiding), and what if by the time I get
up I still couldn't come to peace with this feeling?
And I guess that's when I stop this DIM TTP. I feel discouraged because I
know I cannot stick to it WHATEVER IT TAKES.
I know I have to
get up and go to work by a certain time. And I want to pee sooooooooo bad
that I just get up and go to the bathroom.
I am worried if I
can actually get off my bed and walk with my arms and legs crippled, but it
turns out it isn't as severe as I thought and I am able to gain control of
my limbs. I am sure I am not dreaming because I actually go to use the
bathroom, and I am very fully aware of what happened.
So what's your thought on this strange experience?
seem to enjoy the DIM process. You might consider really going with it and
thinking your way to freedom.
case you want to take these feelings to a tribe meeting, you might consider
wearing a diaper and really letting yourself go.
With the Flow
Mon, 24 Jan 2005
I hope you will bear with me, and won't consider me a boor (or
a bore) for pointing this out, but the tsunami picture [Dec 30 -
What's Their Intentions ?], in which the wave has the appearance of an
over-foaming beer, bearing down on hapless bystanders:
[According to Snopes (1), this] widely circulated picture of an Indian Ocean
tsunami [is, in fact] ... a picture of a "tidal bore" from
"Tidal bores occur at predictable times, and watching these events
is a four-day-long government-sponsored tourist festival in China, hence
there were plenty of people and photographers on hand to observe the one
captured in the pictures above.
outlets in a variety of countries have been taken in by these photos and
have run them as genuine pictures of the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami."
you for bear-ing down on the em-bear-assing, a-bear-ant photo.
wonder how Snopes explains how people with four-day advance notice, still
get themselves in a position to incur the drenching of their lives.
Bear News Network
a first paw account
the front of the wave.
Mon, 24 Jan 2005
Fear to an
I was watching a horror movie called The Ring, and in it several
characters were scared to death (literally) by a spirit who walked out
of a television. Probably their heart beat races to beyond tolerable
Now it gets me to think, do those people die (or even ordinary people
who witness traumatic events and go crazy) because they refuse to
fully experience their feeling of fear and so CM and Fred fail to work
Or do they
experience it to such an extreme that they die (or go crazy)? Or even, do
they just intend to die (or go crazy)?
Thanks for your insights. I don't know why I have these kinds of weird
like the Hekyl and Jeckyl line; one of the incorrigible crows notes,
"anything is possible in animated cartoons."
principle might apply to most films.
does not attempt to answer "why" questions - even if they arrive
as "because" questions. See ground rules.
Learn the Truth
the Meaning of a Film
Mon, 24 Jan 2005
Hi I would like to start up TT in Princeton, NJ.
that E = MC2
= Method x Commitment 2
Sat, 22 Jan 2005
Dealing with Medical Errors
Years ago, while pursuing my initial education in trading, I heard a speaker
say that good traders should learn to "love your losses." I
couldn't grasp that then, but have begun to understand the concept. I have
mostly despised my losses.
I have been drawn to shorter term trading, even scalping off the floor,
in an attempt to avoid "mistakes."
I have a tough
time taking small losses repeatedly without getting discouraged, and have
been on the receiving end of the fire hose too many times.
I share some writings concerning mistakes made by physicians and believe
that they are common to many other professions and fields, and permeate our
society. The need to be perfect is rampant. I guess that this is the
basis for failures of many trading strategies, especially my own.
Your concept of going with uncomfortable feelings until they play themselves
just like a trend, during the tribe meetings is a powerful counterintuitive
for dealing with the emotional consequences of loss. As soon as I meet the
prerequisites, I will join my local tribe.
Strangely, there is no place for mistakes in modern medicine. Society
has entrusted physicians with the burden of understanding and dealing with
Although it is
often said that "doctors are only human," technological wonders,
the apparent precision of laboratory tests, and innovations that present
tangible images of illness have in fact created an expectation of
And, although patients are the first and obvious victims of medical
mistakes, doctors are wounded by the same errors: they are the second
Virtually every practitioner knows the sickening realization of making a bad
mistake. You feel singled out and exposed - seized by the instinct to see if
anyone has noticed. You agonize about what to do, whether to tell anyone,
what to say. Later, the event replays itself over and over in your mind. You
question your competence but fear being discovered.
Sadly, the kind of unconditional sympathy and support that are really needed
are rarely forthcoming.
While there is a
norm of not criticizing, reassurance from colleagues is often grudging or
qualified. One reason may be that learning of the failings of others allows
physicians to divest their own past errors among the group, making them feel
It has been
suggested that the only way to face the guilt after a serious error is
through confession, restitution, and absolution. But confession is
discouraged, passively by the lack of appropriate forums for discussion, and
sometimes actively by risk managers and hospital lawyers.
Further, there are
no institutional mechanisms to aid the grieving process. In the absence of
mechanisms for healing, physicians find dysfunctional ways to protect
themselves. They often respond to their own mistakes with anger and
projection of blame, and may act defensively or callously and blame or scold
the patient or other members of the healthcare team. Distress escalates in
the face of a malpractice suit. In the long run some physicians are deeply
wounded, lose their nerve, burn out, or seek solace in alcohol or drugs. My
observation is that this number includes some of our most reflective and
sensitive colleagues, perhaps most susceptible to injury from their own
I'll conclude with an assignment for the practicing doctor: think back to
your last mistake that harmed a patient. Talk to a colleague about it.
Notice your colleague's reactions, and your own. What helps? What makes it
harder? Physicians will always make mistakes. The decisive factor will be
how we handle them. Patient safety and physician welfare will be well served
if we can be more honest about our mistakes to our patients, our colleagues,
One physician says it this way:
Painfully, almost unbelievably, we physicians are even less prepared to deal
with our mistakes than the average lay person is. The climate of medical
school and residency training, for example, makes it nearly impossible to
confront emotional consequences of mistakes ... When a physician does make
an important mistake, it is first whispered about in the halls as if it were
relations play a critical role in trading - and in medicine.
might consider setting up a Tribe of about a half dozen practicing
am willing to visit your group to help you get up and running.
from their clients.
same goes for traders.
Fri, 21 Jan 2005
What Two Should
I Hold ?
Dear Mr. Seykota
I have been thinking about ranking currencies in a trading system. If one
were to go long the euro vs the $ and long the peso vs the $, then apply
their system to the euro vs peso which says for one to go long that, the
trader would be better off being long the euro and not bother with the peso.
If one were to take this idea to it's limits, applying cross rates to all
futures products, it would be possible to come up with two contracts in
which the trader should hold a long and short position.
I realize this is bordering on breaking the ground rules, so I didn't
word it as a question
does not tell people what they should do. See Ground Rules.
might consider exploring your feelings about what you "should" do.
can perform simulations to get a sense for ways to trade currencies, and /
or lay off base currency risk.
a mathematical balance between concentration, diversification, composite
risk, volatility and return - does not address (1) longing for someone to
tell you what you "should" do or (2) tendencies to dance along the
border of breaking the rules.
Can Usually Find
way to get around the rules
the ones that protect you.
Fri, 21 Jan 2005
The more you are willing to experience the feeling of bumping into walls,
the less you have to bump into walls.
This is GREAT, thanks!!! It all makes sense now, and it feels great. I want
to fully and willingly experience all those painful losses, and I intend to
bring it to the hot seat at my local tribe.
Now here's a question, isn't it somewhat disappointing to know that as soon
as I accept that feeling, that feeling dissipates?
I mean, it's like
a person whom you hate, once you finally befriends him and accepts him
fully, he just stops showing up in your life.
I find it sad, the
loss of a true friend the moment you find this true friend. Am I
misinterpreting something? What's your thoughts about it? Thanks.
feelings you experience tend to disappear, making room for others.
joy you experience at the sight of a friend may quickly pass and make room
for other feelings as you engage in conversation and play.
disappearance of feelings does not disappear your friends. It tends to
draw them closer.
Fri, 21 Jan 2005
Dear Ed Seykota,
I have come to your email address through your TradingTribe site. I read
about your amazing trading record through the "Market Wizards"
book and am most impressed!
... I'm a 30 year old MD from London, UK. I've been getting more and more
fascinated with trading and less interested in medicine. This has been
leading me to find experienced people to learn from.
I too believe that a mechanical system can be applied to trading. The
importance of a system that works cannot be emphasized enough! I'd like to
find out more about your system - it clearly works. Do you teach it?
like trading, is fairly mechanical and relies on applying systems.
both, the emotional, subconscious and attitudinal parts are critical.
You Perceive Yourself
be as important
the systems you use.
Fri, 21 Jan 2005
An Awful Lot of
Thank you for responding to my email. I am honored to have corresponded with
a trader of your caliber.
Anyway, I read
your FAQ from Jan 4, 2005 and I am still completely interested in investing
with you. I do have a couple of questions/clarifications though.
First, am I
reading your FAQ correctly in that one must have at least $250,000 dollars
in order to invest with you (or a net worth of 2.5 million)?
Because that is
an awful lot of money, and significantly more than I could contribute.
If that is not the case however, would you mind emailing me the specifics of
what the minimum investment is, as well as, your fee structure. It would be
Also I was hoping
that if I could open an account with you that I could contribute more money
to it on a consistent basis -- i.e. yearly. Again I thank you for your time
in reviewing my request.
might consider how you might feel about losing "an awful lot of
the extent you feel "awful", you might abandon your system -
or your trader.
might consider keeping your trading small enough to keep your fear safely
inside your envelope of comfort.
reading the markets
at managing your own anxieties
Fri, 21 Jan 2005
Sat, 1 Jan 2005
"Implementing TTP into existing social structures can be tricky - as
may prefer preserving the existing structure to growing.
You might consider joining or forming a Tribe from relative strangers."
I notice that you frequently report this result about implementing TTP in
existing social structures.
While I certainly
agree that it is tricky, I nevertheless report that TTP with pre-existing
social structures may work in some specific cases if the individuals are; 1)
really committed to fully experiencing their feelings, 2) have an
extraordinarily strong intention to achieve personal growth.
On the other hand, my experience is that some people just don't have the
intention and commitment to stick to the process and experience their forms,
and these folks seem to weed themselves out and avoid growth even if they
are in a near-optimal tribe setting.
The moral of the story is: with a really strong commitment and intention,
some powerful results seem to manifest even in non-optimal circumstances.
with a flimsy commitment and intention, poor results are likely even in
structures may contain people who operate at odds with community goals.
may view the requirement for honesty as a threat.
to engage personal growth can be an indicator of who is really on the team.
personal and organizational goals
toward Right Livelihood