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from Ed in Red)
Mon, 20 Sep 2004
Here are a few things about Glossary you might consider:
+ I notice you have two similar entries in the glossary for the Under Fred
network. One is in the Essential, section and the other in the
Elaborative. You might want to consolidate them:
Under-Fred Network: Fred controls subtle interpersonal communications via
emotions, such as facial expressions and body postures. He uses the
emotional channel to enroll others in fulfilling our intentions. When
Fred's intention is to pump feelings, and when CM does not listen, Fred
may enroll others in situational drama.
Under Fred – the network of all Freds. Under Fred is the communication
system we use to enroll each other in drama and in right livelihood.
Someone might use subconscious body posture to announce a desire to become
a victim in a drama, or to realize a grand enterprise. Under Fred
communicates intentions directly, even without
any currently measurable means. See Magic.
I admit I may have missed the distinction between the two items.
+ The following link, included in the K-not definition does not work:
This link works:
Either spelling is correct, but the browser doesn't know that. Neither
does my Mac - which asserts 'judgement' is misspelt.
+ I suggest the "Go For It" item might be enclosed in quotation
marks - to indicate this item is something the tribe might -say- to
encourage the sender to locate and experience forms. Further, a definition
for the word "Encouragement" might provide a list of encouraging
but not distracting phrases useful for receivers, such as "yes",
"go for it", "keep doing that", "that's it"
I hope this helps.
you for reading carefully and for reporting your findings to FAQ.
The Glossary now stands with your corrections.
like "Buckhead" quickly analyze the CBS documents and prove they
eventually replies: "We were mislead ... We should not have
might improve the clarity of their reporting and thinking by implementing
SVO-p. (See Glossary). Past tense and passive voice enable
concealment and obfuscation.
Mon, 20 Sep 2004
I have been so afraid to feel fear, it has ruled my life.
I did not know this until a sleepless night in which I told myself to feel
what ever feelings arose.
In a few minutes, I'm curled up in a ball, being afraid of everything,
being afraid of not know why I'm afraid.
I remember a time as a young teen, working on a farm with friends.
We're on a break and playing on top of the hay bails which are stacked
inside of the barn, only a few feet from the peak. Bill starts to slip
down between the hay bails and the wall joists, starts calling for help.
Jon is cool and collected. I panic and don't know what to do. I'm afraid
and feeling claustrophobic with the ceiling so close to me.
Jon is helping Bill, while I am curled up in a ball, crying, terrified of
what might happen in the very near future.
Bill is Ok and up on top of the hay now. Little is said on our way down to
the ground and we continue our work day with subdued conversation.
Not much more is said about the incident.
I feel childish. I feel guilty. I don't like being afraid.
It isn't until I'm lying in bed that I realize that Bill was never in any
real danger, and fear was the thing I was most afraid of that day.
I realized that this incident, and my being afraid of fear itself, have
had a powerful influence in my life. Now that I realize this, now that I
realize there is an accessible source of influence, I feel free, I feel
I am willing to explore my fear of fear, and it seems to dissipate.
I see more opportunities now that my fear of fear dissipates.
As my fear of being fearful dissipates, the original fear gradually
subsides as well.
There always some fear when a new opportunity presents itself, and that
It is ok to feal some fear, and act on it as a chance to expand and grow.
I am no longer looking for the easy way, or comfortable way to succeed.
I see opportunities in trading, as well as in life, which have always been
in front of my face, but haven't seen.
In many instances, fear = opportunity.
I remember a quote "If it isn't a little bit scary, it isn't a big
Maybe if FDR had been a TTP member...
The only thing we have to fear, is being afraid to feel, fear itself.
Thank you for your site, and inspiring me to grow.
lively reaction to Bill's fall may indicate a prior incident and deeper
k-nots of feelings.
might take your fear feelings to a Tribe meeting.
in the Hay
mean different things
sure someone wants rescuing
imposing a bale-out.
Mon, 20 Sep 2004
off the hook (Sep 16, 2004)
Thanks for the response. To align the receivers and myself, can you please
elaborate more? I think our group is under the impression that, the sender
presents his dream to the Tribe, and the receivers give a pass/no-pass
based on the clarity of the intention of the sender, such that we can then
proceed to TTP/hardball and feel what is standing between us and the
So this is a
process where the receivers not only encourage me (the sender) to
send/present my dream, but also need to analyze it and reflect back to me
if the dream is ambiguous. Is it not the proper way?
For the last two weeks we have been doing that, going through a lot of
clarifications and even though I find a lot of feelings and emotions (e.g.
the determined and ruthless beast) via the Process, what I get from that
seems too "logical" (perhaps even story telling) to the
Hardball Process is a method for attaining a goal - by dissolving barriers
between you and your goal.
you have no goal, you can set up "to have a goal" or "to
experience my feelings" as an interim goal.
either event, the receivers are to receive, not lead or guide or require a
"20 year plan," as in your previous example.
on the job at hand.
Sun, 19 Sep 2004
I sometimes use sex, food, alcohol, and other substances to avoid
experiencing certain feelings.
Do you ever
practice TTP and / or breath work after a period of fasting and
If so, what
differences do you notice in the experience?
you convert your feelings from adversaries to allies, you lose your desire
to avoid your feelings.
then, becomes just another sexual preference.
might consider taking your desire to fast and abstain into the process.
Another Cool Way
Combine Sex and Food
the phrase "will work"
to the non-existing future
indicates weak intention.
yourself and your client
the moment of now.
Sun, 19 Sep 2004
Dear Mr. Seykota,
I attended a seminar of yours in 1991 in Larkspur California with about 15
or 20 other people ... In any event, I ended up moving to Chicago,
and have been trading on the floor for the past 10 years.
I am interested
in moving away from the floor, because the scalping edges have been
eliminated with low volatility and computerized trades.
I'd appreciate it if you could put me in contact with a group here in the
mid-west. Or possibly could I join your tribe. I feel I need the support
of a group as I make the transition to the screen.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Tribe Directory for instructions for joining and / or starting a Tribe.
Sat, 18 Sep 2004
Ed Says: "Debating with someone rarely changes
their attitude; debating is just drama in which two senders refuse to
receive for each other."
Carl Rogers ("Becoming a Person") recommends one way around this
drama. In a debate you have the up-front rule that you must articulate the
previous statement to their liking before you can say anything about your
own view on the subject.
pretty artificial and trivial, but it is much harder to execute than
it sounds. It can work miracles in changing attitudes where the
participants hold strong, emotionally charged opposing
people agree to fully receive each other before sending, you don't really
have a debate. You have something closer to TTP.
techniques include subtle forms of assuming a solution and then
transferring the assumption to clients.
Fri, 17 Sep 2004
I am interested in your workshop, but am not sure if it is appropriate
for me. I would appreciate the chance to discuss it with someone.
I am the team leader of ... successfully engineered a turnaround in this
fund since 1998, I am now at stage in life of looking for the next
I have been a futures trader in my personal account since 1977, and have
been successful for the last several years, I am past the point of
grappling with the demons of following ones system and losing confidence
in the methodology.
My interest in the seminar is twofold:
1. a desire to refine my "trend capturing" methodology which is
different than the fundamental approach used in the mutual fund.
2. Gaining insight on the issue of whether it is better to work alone, or
in a group. If the answer is a group, how best to go about it.
So, my questions are these:
Would I be a good person to have at the seminar?
Would the seminar be helpful in regard to my interests?
What other types of people will be in attendance?
I can be reached at xxx-xxxx-xxxxx weekdays. If you get voice mail, I will
call you right back. Thanks.
Workshop has no marketing team and no one to call you.
Workshop simply receives; it welcomes people who are ready to, say,
explore feelings about knowing what is appropriate .
Thu, 16 Sep 2004
I did not find
your response very thorough. To rephrase my first question.
As I said before, I have read through the website and don't understand the
basic idea of TTP.
-Is trading "instruments" / trading stocks / Investing the
underlying purpose of TTP, or is not that much to do with this at all?
-What is the main theme/definition of TTP?
I already stated what I thought it looked like it was, but I want to know
exactly what it is.
get a the basic idea of TTP, you might try exploring your feelings of
wanting an exact definition.
TTP, a demand for information
lead to insight
you like to be demanding.
Thu, 16 Sep 2004
Off the Hook
I greatly appreciate your advice, as always. I feel I am on to something
very important and I'm very close to it, but not quite there yet, so your
insight here may push me over it.
For the last two weeks I have been working with my tribe on refining my
dream. When I first did my dream about a year ago or so, my snapshot was
one where I hold four roles (speculator, student, author, philanthropist),
and the theme is to accumulate wealth and knowledge and then giving them
away. The feeling is rewarding, fulfilling and heart-warming.
Recently, as I review old FAQ's, I see one where you say the best thing we
could do to contribute is to find something we really like, and do it
really well. It really resonates with me and opens a whole new world. All
of a sudden, I feel that the best way I can give is by being best at
myself, by committing to doing things I like to do. And that becomes my
dream - the dream of spending EVERY MOMENT OF NOW doing things I really
like, and do them really well. The natural by-product is right livelihood.
When I present it to my tribe, I greatly appreciate my receivers
reflecting their thoughts back to me. Some have difficulty giving me a
pass because it sounds vague to them. Can that even be a dream, because
it's like everyone wants to do things they like anyway? Can that be a
dream because it is so vague that there may be a lot of potential
conflict? They want me to clarify what is the thing that I want to do,
and I give some examples, but they are not definitive (like a must-do).
Then I may have gone too far and some say I am too specific, but we all
get the feeling that it is something along the line of going with the flow
every moment. (The next day on the train to work, I think of Forrest Gump
- who does thing so naturally, and just by being himself and doing things
he does best (running, ping-pong, shrimp-boat captain, even in Vietnam),
he serves a lot of people and changes their lives. Surprisingly Gump fits
the closest to my dream.)
My receivers ask for a snapshot to give them a clearer picture. I envision
a snapshot when I know I am about to die, and I look back and have a
fulfilling and rewarding feeling that I have spent my life the way I like
it, and there is nothing that I want to change. I live my damnedest.
The receivers do not pass me because it is too reflective. They want me
to try 20 years out instead of the end of my life. So I do that, living
through a day 20 years from now. Still, I do not get a pass, perhaps
because I spend too much of my focus on consciously explaining to them and
justifying my reasoning.
Finally, we decide to go to TTP to find out what stands between me and
fully experiencing my dream. I first feel frustration and aimlessly moving
my arms and legs. Eventually it gets to the same old feeling which I have
experienced on previous hot seat sessions - breathing hard and rapidly to
the point where I choke. And this time I am roaring like a beast. I am
like an animal fighting, not backing down, and determined. I keep roaring
and crying out loud despite my throat turns sore; I breathe hard and deep
and fast to the point I feel like puking, and then I come right back and
go through that experience again. I have this feeling in past hot seat
sessions as well, as I long for the feeling of a determined and committed
warrior who knifes through anything that stands in his way. Perhaps I long
for this overcoming power feeling that I engineer this breathing/puking
experience, and in a way I am saying to myself, whatever beating I am
taking now, I am not backing down and I will overcome it.
As I push the puking feeling further with the encouragement from my
receivers, I finally "overcome" it by spitting out some
disgusting phlegm (thanks God I have the Kleenex before I actually spit it
out). The next stage is when I gather my strength and stand up, and I
forcefully move my hands and strongly release my fists, like releasing
some invisible magic force. I feel like giving. I feel even though I am
giving away all these power, I actually still have a lot inside of me. It
The process is very powerful and I feel great about it. After experiencing
these I finally step out. These are great feelings I want to feel,
especially the feeling of a determined beast roaring past obstacles,
fighting against heaven. Perhaps it is related to ... my c-section birth
and not going through the struggle of birth, and also related to my
feeling of not wanting to confront. There is actually this shadow (beast)
side of me that I am suppressing, when I am quiet, shy and gentle most of
the time. And now after all the struggle, I have the power that is
overflowing and I want to give out to others, metaphorically speaking. And
despite my giving, I still have more inside.
I explain all these to the tribe members. And here's where we are
stuck. All agree that I have gone through a lot of feelings, and some
congratulate me on the work I've done. However, some remain unconvinced.
They feel that it sounds too "logical", as if I am explaining
it. They feel that it may be CM who is scripting the beast fighting
part, and that I am trying to overcome the feeling (like choking to the
point where I almost puke) instead of accepting it as I repeatedly use the
word "overcome", "fight" and "conquer."
So even though what I have experienced "makes sense" to me, I
respect my receivers' observations and wonder if it indeed "makes too
much sense?" My receivers think that it may be another dramatic
act (another judge) that Fred engineers so that I don't get to the true
underlying feeling. Some have made suggestions that maybe I can feel the
polarity of the "beast" side and my "gentle" side at
the same time.
I really want to get to the root of it and find my right livelihood.
(Another favorite quote from FAQ: Right livelihood means commitment to a
course of action that you and your Tribe refine with TTP) I have a
recurring issue with not committing and not taking it to the fullest. In
addition to the last two weeks of work with my tribe, I have previously
tried feeling total un-committing on the hot seat. I feel that I have gone
through a lot and probably very close to it, but just not quite there yet.
I don't want to give up now. I want to take it to completion for once.
Can you please share your insight and help? Many, many thanks!!!!
TTP, the receivers encourage you to send whatever you are sending.
"receivers" seem to have an agenda for you to clarify your
intentions and make 20 year plans.
might consider re-aligning your receivers on receiving, and then exploring
your feelings about wanting to go to completion.
Off the Hook
sender can't get through.
Wed, 15 Sep 2004
I kindly request your authorization to reprint your Risk Management
article in my upcoming website.
Naturally, I shall reference the source of the article with a link to your
website if you wish.
you for you interest in Risk Management
and for asking for permission to reprint. See Ground rules for
may assemble and conduct meetings to discuss, teach and use anything on
the Trading Tribe Site - as long as it is (1) not-for-profit, (2)
absolutely free to participants, (3) at the risk of the presenters and
participants. See Ground Rules.
may reprint the article if (1) your site is non-commercial and (2)
you credit www.tradingtribe.com
and note the material is (c) Ed Seykota and further reprinting is with my
If your site is commercial, you may mention the article and post a URL to www.tradingtribe.com.
your site is commercial and you want to copy and re-print the article,
write me about licensing the article.
Wed, 15 Sep 2004
TTP - Messy
I write about my hot seat experience on 8-19-04 at IV-TT. I call it
I experience three feelings when a ‘mess’ is created. The first
feeling is a slimy, wet feeling in my hands and feet. I want to shake it
off, and I do. The second feeling is a crunching, hot feeling, in my arms
and legs. I curl up into a ball and look away from the mess. The third
feeling is a focused look, my brow is crunched in, my hands are up in a
ready position, and I have a warm, tight feeling in my jaw.
I label these feelings as:
1. “What a &%@*# mess!”
2. “I don’t want to do it (deal with it)”
3. “Do it!”
I experience all three feelings, separately, enjoying each feeling. Then I
merge two feelings, enjoying the feeling. Then I merge all three feelings
at the same time, enjoying the feeling. I let my body take the form it
wants to take. I end in a standing position, one leg slightly off the
ground, and hands in front of me. I focus in the now.
After this process, TT members ask me, “How do you feel about a mess?”
I have a warm buzzing feeling in my chest, I say. I like this feeling. TT
members ask me, “How do you feel about ‘I don’t want to do it’?”
I have a warm buzzing feeling in my chest, I say. I like the feeling.
Finally, TT members ask me, “How do you feel about ‘do it’?” I
have a warm buzzing feeling in my chest, I say. I like the feeling.
I know I have a different feelings surrounding a mess, and I wonder how I
feel the next time I encounter one.
I realize the potential of this process on 8-23-04:
It is Monday morning, my son’s nanny is late, she leaves her car keys at
home, and is in need of a ride from the train station to my house. (What a
mess.) I am busy working and I do not want to deal with this, (second
feeling). After a few minutes, I get up and get her so I can get back to
work (do it feeling).
As I drive to the train station, I realize what happens to me as I
encounter a mess. AHA! This drama (feelings 1 and 2) plays itself out
before I ‘do it’.
Now that I experience my feelings associated with a mess, my drama
dissolves. Now when a mess happens, I just deal with it. No drama around
it. Actually, as I write this, messy is not really a mess anymore, it is
just another situation I deal with.
This new feeling after merging feelings has a cool outcome for me. The
original feelings are still there, but they’re not the same. Maybe it’s
because they’re dissolving. In any case, I see the process work for me,
you for sharing your experience as this encourages others to engage the
Putting on Her Sundae Best
is another word for
Wed, 15 Sep 2004
Being childish sometimes, and receiving an AHA after, is myself sometimes.
Tue, 14 Sep 2004
Ed, do you and the trader you worked with intend to complete the
"Exercise in System Development" that began earlier this year?
exercise, like most everything on this site is a work in progress.
evidence of completion.
14 Sep 2004
Can you please elaborate on what you have in the glossary about Decision -
killing off alternatives until only one is left? So every decision is just
the result of process of elimination?
does it relate to TTP? Thanks.
is from Latin dēcīdere, to cut off: dē-, + caedere,
is from Old High German kiosan to choose, from Latin gustare to
TTP is more of a choice than a decision. People typically develop a
taste for it, rather than come to it as a last resort.
Organ of Choice.
14 Sep 2004
Been a While
1.) In Jan of 1990 I was invited to attend a meeting in Marin County, Ca.
You were the moderator and it involved focused breathing. The whole
process we went through that day seems very similar to the Trading Tribe.
came to the meeting with some feelings that bothered us, did the breathing
exercise and then discussed our feelings with the group. It was an all day
affair and each of us got to sit in the hot seat (although it wasn't
called that at the time). I really enjoyed the process but never had any
luck when attempting to repeat it by myself so it kind of faded into the
I have recently begun trading for myself and was delighted to come across
your FAQ's and the Trading Tribe process. Kind of like finding an old
friend (just in time I might add). Are today's TT meetings an evolution of
that meeting 14 years ago? After going through about half of the FAQ's,
I've not heard one mention of focused breathing, It seemed to be a large
part of the process back then. Do you feel its no longer an integral part
2.) I recently took an intro course to VBA programming. I still have a
long way to go in becoming adept at programming but I have yet to hear
anyone use this particular programming language for developing trading
systems and back testing. If this is my goal, is this a viable vehicle to
accomplish it? I have read the FAQ rules and will not take your answer to
#2 as a recommendation or endorsement for any particular commercial
product. Just a bit of guidance.
Looking forward to further "Adventures of Self-Discovery"
forms of Breathwork and Meditation can help people get in touch with their
you get in touch with them, the trick is to experience them fully, and
integrate them into your emotional control panel. This seems to
require effort and encouragement.
of the essential functions of a Tribe is to give you encouragement and
motivation to fully experience the feelings you have in K-nots.
a tribe, you default to the DIM (Do It Myself) Process and your own
self-protective mechanisms may derail you.
can use VBA, C, C++, Java, Perl, Cobol, Fortran, or even machine language
- especially if you combine your coding with clear thinking.
nothing in the way.
14 Sep 2004
My current belief is that the propensity of TTP to become a passing
worldwide-AHA is at least in part proportional to the worldwide
accessibility of the TTP text.
Regarding key-concept posts: A few well-placed anchor tags attached to
posts, comprising perhaps 5% of the total TTP text, can serve to bookmark
the key detail of pivotal/foundational TTP concepts found in the overall
FAQ content mix.
Such FAQ bookmarks can make overall TTP much more accessible. Efforts to
create such bookmarks are therefore highly leveraged with respect to:
"Ed's ultimate intention for The Trading Tribe
and for TTP is for people to experience it, and for it to disappear and
become just another passing AHA."
I'm willing to assist in any project that increases the accessibility of
TTP-defining FAQ-text along these lines.
you for your suggestions and comments. I feel they make
the site much more effective.
welcome your continuing participation.
14 Sep 2004
No wonder most people do not want to go through change. It is simply hard
and hardly simple to find out who you really are and notice the
discrepancies between what you always thought of yourself and the truth.
have to admit to so many things I do not like about myself. They are very
often the negative characteristics in other peoples behavior I always
dwelled upon. For
example, I get to know somebody and dislike the person for being disloyal
or somebody who does not care for other people's feelings.
the "me parts" where my fears of somebody doing something bad in
the future. I think to myself "how can anyone be like that? This is
evil". I walk through this as I let myself go in the everyday
process. I notice those very feelings in me. This is me!
never did stuff that brought me close to feeling them. Now I do some of
them and I like them. I feel satisfaction for being real me and a bit of
guilt also. I think I might be making enemies, I feel that my friends and
loved ones are hurt by the things I do and say. I say: "I am sorry,
really. But I am also not sorry at all. I have been living in my cocoon
too long. I am not bad, I just want to be free and make progress. Do you
know I hurt, it's all pent up and releasing, please stay there with
me!" This realization and change is not easy for anybody. The therapy
I'm in keeps the little boy in me very alive. I now unconsciously do what
I was always afraid of doing. This backfires sometimes as I see how
irresponsible I can be. I keep taking risks without handling the
consequences. I think "damn! I am not improving - I am only making
things worse". But then I go out and explain myself as if I was Dad,
who goes up to excuse his child. I do not punish him anymore, definitely
not the way he was treated long ago. I embrace him, I say: "it's OK,
just remember to think twice next time. I know you are strong and brave.
You do not have to keep proving this to me".
notice how I do things and the feelings pop up. I know why they are there.
I never talked to myself like a good father talks to his son. I feels good
because I feel a lot safer now. I feel forgiveness. It is now easier for
me to ask for forgiveness. I also feel a little more accepted by me for
just being me. I dream of making friends within myself and establishing a
great team inside. I know I can because I have been there a few times
PS. I would really prefer my feelings brought up in a safer environment,
right I do not have much of a choice.
your Tribe, you might try independently experiencing your
"child" form and then your "parent forms."
you might try experiencing them simultaneously. See Half-a-Yoga
in the Glossary.
you touch it.
you, too, may change,
skin touches you.
14 Sep 2004
I bring up my general trading personality and start working on my real
system, here it is:
contrarian - I feel a lot more confident when others hesitate
patient - able to wait months or even years for a move
trend-following - I like watching profits run and I like good losses too
imagination - I can picture any scenario when my mind is clear
believer - persistent in my long-term optimism, I always get up after a
focused - I know and feel my craft. I think I made 360 degrees.
strong will - this is new, but it is there. I am willing to change
very risk-seeking - my high: over 24% risk in a 1 ATR unit when very
self-esteem - uncontrolled false believes of self, craving
- fears regarding self-disciplined work
habits - ingrained self-destructing and losing patterns, mostly
- sometimes I just don't give a heck
addictive personality - hard to quit all this
I work on the bothering issues. I do not want to change them in a sense
that they must disappear (although it would be nice if I stopped eating
myself from the inside).
I would just like to know what I can make of them so that my system lives.
Here are my guesses, now I see what finding positive intentions means:
very-risk seeking - this can lead to high gains. good. I make sure I
survive along the way and can take the volatility ride.
irrational self-esteem - I find other things in life to make me feel good.
There is more to life than trading. Maybe this will help me stick to the
system. If it does time will reward my trading self-esteem, bit by
procrastinating - Now I realize that the main issues standing between me
and my success is hard work and the feelings which prevent me from doing
I also see that I always run away form work, unless I use it to escape
other feelings. Funny that I must work hard to produce a relatively lazy
bad habits - I am proficient in losing, I even know I can lose by winning.
I feel compassionate for other losers. My system will take this into
consideration, I'll use good MM. It will soon be obvious that the losers
are gone and my system is still alive. RIP guys, really sorry for you but
I have to be responsible for my own trading.
unruly - how about just being successful, huh? People do not have to know
what I'm doing. I have always got FAQ:)
addictive personality - I am already addicted to improving, this will
create the system.
examination is subject to side-tracking by self-protection.
DIM (Do It Myself) process
in the Glossary.
might consider taking your investigations to your Tribe.
Rarely Tailor Themselves
least while they are wearing
13 Sep 2004
Time You've Heard This?
First off, I really enjoy your site, and I am learning every day how to be
a better trend follower. Thanks for providing this service and forum.
I wanted to get your opinion on my experience as a trader, as I would be
interested in your comments and perhaps some of your readers would benefit
by reading this.
I have made two attempts during my life at becoming a full time trader.
Both time I did this were after successful one year runs, where I wasn't
crazy about my current job, and figured I was good enough to no longer
need a job. Each lasted about 3 months, and each of these 3 month periods
were my two most disastrous trading periods. Since the last 3 month period
when I did this, I have started two other businesses and once again only
devote an hour or two a week trading. Guess what? I am really doing well
I have come to realize that when I spend this extra amount of time on
trading, I simply over trade and I get this overwhelming feeling of panic
which I can't remember ever experiencing outside of these periods. When I
am busy working on my other initiatives, I seem to filter out all the
noise of daily market movements and am better able to see the trend.
Have you ever heard this from anyone before?
I know of a trader in Incline Village who does other things, like play the
banjo and write an FAQ column.
urge to play the banjo.
12 Sep 2004
Mr. E. Seykota
I am writing to you requesting some information about trading. I have been
trading stocks off and on for several years. I have just finished reading
a book that briefly talks about tend following, and I would like some more
information about this type of trading.
1 - can trend following be applied to options or is it just for stocks,
bonds and commodities trading.
2 - I have read about how traders get a buy or sell signal, were can I get
more information about how to recognize set-up, buy and sell signals.
3 - can you please recommend some good books about the fundamentals of
trend following in stocks, options and commodities for someone just
starting in this type of trading.
- If you have any other tips and suggestions that you feel will be
Thank you for your time and help.
- Check Resources/Books, above.
does not tell people what they should do. See Ground Rules.
of the Story
in the books.
rest of the story
12 Sep 2004
and Intentions and SVO-p
I am implementing TTP communication techniques (such as direct and clearly
articulated intentions in SVO-p format) to the best of my ability (as I
understand the techniques) day-to-day. SVO-p is very [discontinuous /
jagged / not smooth] to implement at first.
During one episode which concerns a kind of ambiguous, quasi-business
proposal made to me recently by someone who observes one of my
businesses, I experience instant results.
The result is that the person receives my intention-statement replies by
email, and is no longer communicating. As in, no communication whatsoever.
Experiencing the personal hopeful feelings of maybe communicating further
with this person is an interesting episode in itself as I come to
understand some parts of what is actually happening.
promotes clear communication and clear thinking.
your correspondent finds SVO-p offensive, it may indicate he has something
to hide from you.
overall performance might improve if you engage less, and more accurately.
12 Sep 2004
What if you really don't have "drama" in your life ... no I'm
I own my own Coffee Roasting business which includes roasting coffee
(warehouse) and retail stores.
dealing with employees and all of their drama, customers and all of
their drama - I realizing that you really can't do anything about
"drama" but let it "play itself out."
I have found that reacting to "drama", or trying to play the
"drama" out is a waste of time.
already knows what is going to happen. All you can do is stay focused on
the big picture and "keep on keeping on." We only get in trouble
when we try to do it our way and Fred doesn't agree.
to deal with employee drama and with customer drama is your drama.
might consider engaging TTP as a way to find out what Fred is trying to
tell you. Perhaps it has to do with your aversion to wasting time.
you deal with your own issues you may find your employees and customers
behaving much less dramatically.
which you support
12 Sep 2004
My continuing journey with TTP is accompanied with great increases in
clarity, growth, and commitment. I am willing to experience life as it
comes to me in this ever evolving moment of now. I no longer "look
forward" to living my life in the future. I believe there is no
destination, only the journey which is happening now. These shifts occur
in my life as the major dramas dissolve.
One feeling that came to the surface recently played a role in my previous
day-trading drama, yet I never seemed to experience in previous TTP
sessions. It involved overtrading, losing my profits, and feeling guilt,
shame, regret, etc. toward my family for making such a mess.
would say to myself "I am so sorry for screwing up, you (my family)
deserve better". As the trading drama dissolved, I found myself
smoking cigarettes again after 20 years of off and on smoking. The smoking
seemed to intensify. I would ask myself the why?
would get this vision of me in a hospital with lung cancer, with my family
around me in tears, and me feeling the ultimate in guilt, shame, and
regret for bringing this on them. The feeling in the vision was so
frightening to me, I knew I needed to experience it fully in the Tribe
meeting. This is exactly what I did last week at the IVTT meeting.
September 2nd, 2004:
The feeling is intense and ready to come out. I am thankful I am on the
hot seat as I do not want to leave this feeling un-experienced for another
two weeks. I am ready. I tell the tribe a little background on the feeling
and that is all it takes. I am experiencing the hospital image. I hold my
son and feel the pain of the moment. I hold him even tighter, the emotions
are intense, the guilt and pain are unbearable.
floodgates open. The vision disappears. I am alone with the feeling now. I
begin to cry. I cry uncontrollably. The fear and pain flow inside of me. I
curl up in a ball on the couch in Ed's living room and cry even harder. As
the crying subsides. Ed asks "are you willing to get into that
feeling again". I hesitate, out of no where I shout "I don't
want to F___ing do it!!" With that, I drop to the floor, I don't want
do it again, I writhe in anger and resistance for a moment and then begin
to cry once again with abandon. Not tears of sadness, I cry out of fear
and pain. I am lost in the feeling, I cry so hard it is difficult to catch
my breath. How long I cry, I do not know.
As the crying dissipates, Ed asks to me to locate and experience the
partner feeling, the feeling which sets up the drama. It takes little time
to locate the feeling. I know it well. It pulls me out of the present
moment, and consumes my mind with thought and analyses about both the
future and past. It makes me want a cigarette, or to overtrade, (or, I
realize, anything that will take me to the guilt / shame / regret feeling
complex). I have always enjoyed the feeling, but experiencing it in the
tribe meeting was not pleasant. What felt energizing and exciting before
now feels dull and lifeless, like a dead-end road. A dead-end road with an
all too familiar ending. The feeling was heavy and my eyes felt out of
I am now asked to combine the forms I have experienced. I let my body do
what it needs to do. I am on the floor again. My body starts to move,
contort, and search.
This process seems to have the effect of creating internal connections
which release energy, energy that needs to flow through us and when we
don't let it, it seems to work to our disadvantage.
feels good. As I move through this process, I repeat one form where I am
on my knees, laying face down on the floor with my arms spread out over my
head, almost a stretching exercise. I find this form peaceful and
insightful. Through this process my guilt / shame / regret is reframed as
the most profound feeling of love for my family. A love which I am now
willing and free to express and acknowledge. A love which doesn't have to
be realized by acting out a drama.
Back with my family once again, I feel a sense of closeness, a bond, and a
commitment to both send and receive all the love we share. The ones I love
are so beautiful, their smiles bright, their hugs energizing, their
innocence inspiring, their expressions meaningful. TTP has brought so much
growth to my life and this is yet another example.
In the past week, I have yet to experience the dead-end feeling which
takes me out of the present moment. I seems like it has wanted to come
out, but finds no outlet and is reframed as renewed focus on the present
moment. At times I find myself stretching my arms overhead, much like the
form I experienced on the hot seat, it brings about warm feelings of joy
I started practicing TTP thinking I would reach a destination where I
would be a "new and improved me", I no longer think in those
terms, I am simply on a path of which TTP plays a crucial role.
you for sharing your experience with such depth and feeling. Such
reports motivate, encourage and inspire others to engage the process.
12 Sep 2004
I would like to attend to your workshop on 5, 6 and 7 November.
- Can I fax to you the "to register" paper, because I am living
in Germany and to send my post it would take a week.
I need this week the confirmation if I can attend to the workshop, because
I have to book a flight?
- Can I send the money by bank wire if not I have to ask my bank for a
check which is acceptable in USA?
- I have to book in the hotel one day earlier, because I am coming from
Germany, I have to made the reservation with the hotel, do you arrange
some special rates for the workshop attendees?
Thank you for your help.
am holding a place for you for two weeks, pending receipt of your
application by mail.
is by check only.
payment covers Workshop, plus room and board during the Workshop.
of hotel reservations are between you and the hotel.
Workshop page, above, for complete instructions.
12 Sep 2004
Ed Says: "People who are Unwilling to create
clear communication sometimes send
inaccurate messages to justify feeling indignant about the response."
As a non-native English speaker I try to do my best and yes unworthy
treatment make me set things forth clearly and distinctly.
You might take my criticism, biting in tone, as an entry point into
TTP method is to invite someone to take their feelings into the process -
not to invite them to take your behavior into the process.
For Fun and Profit
Heidi Klum imitates Mike Tyson's infamous biting of American heavyweight
pugilist Evander Holyfield's ear as they pose in the 2000 sports
Illustrated swim suit issue. — AP/PTI photo.
12 Sep 2004
I finally realize that I no longer need to try to become the trader I want
to be. I do what the trader I want to be does.
addition, I realize that I am the trader I want to be now. I always am the
trader I am (want to be) and never the trader I am not (don't want to be)
11 Sep 2004
Hi Ed !
The radio host yesterday liked what I was saying about TTP so much that he
bumped the next guest so I could continue with a longer interview.
Sign for Radio
man is signing so you can
a device that enables you to
11 Sep 2004
I think that age tends to represent a measurement of time and, as such, is
based on similar cognitive constructs. As far as I can see, neither age
nor time seem to serve much of a purpose other than for convince sake –
as a coordinator or place-holder.
I switch a couple words in your “PPR for Children,” and get (what I
think) is a pretty cool PPR for adults.
Private Property Rules for Adults:
1. Stuff in and around the country has one and only one owner.
2. If you are the owner, you may do whatever you want with the stuff.
3. If you are not the owner, you may not touch the stuff without
permission from the owner.
Implementation of PPR eliminates most of the conflicts between citizens.
Typical Violations of PPR:
1. The government gives some stuff to citizens and tells them to share it.
Consequence: Since an adult cannot award a share of something he does not
own, the adults first have to determine ownership. The default way to
determine ownership is to fight.
2. The government scolds an adult for destroying some stuff, taking it
apart, etc. Consequence: This sends an ambiguous message to the adult
about who really owns it, about his ability to make decisions and about
his own sovereignty.
3. The government disciplines (taxes) an adult by taking away some stuff.
Consequence: This sends an ambiguous message to the adult about the
sanctity of private property.
(Private Property Rules) for adults contains ideas that may be difficult
for adults to grasp.
tend to hold beliefs about property, value, identity, etc. in deep k-nots.
are largely immune to advice and opinions that threaten their beliefs in
way to assist people to grasp new ideas is to receive their existing
ideas, opinions and feelings, validate them and help them create a space
in which to come to their own AHA's. This is the essence of TTP.
with someone rarely changes their attitude; debating is just drama in
which two senders refuse to receive for each other.
the political season, expect plenty of master-debater diatribe from
politicians unwilling to try-a-tribe.
good way to teach adults is to begin the process while they are still
by Crosby, Stills and Nash
You, who are on the road,
Must have a code
you can live by.
And so, become yourself,
Because the past is just a good bye.
Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they pick,
one you'll know by.
Don't you ever ask them why,
they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh
know they love you.
And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears
your elders grew by.
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.
Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they pick,
one you'll know by.
Don't you ever ask them why,
they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh
know they love you.
11 Sep 2004
How would the PPR rules work with unrelated playmates?
I was explaining the rules to my sister, who has boys age 2 1/2 and 10
months, and her first reaction was, "how do I implement the rules
when the kids are not all my kids?"
the kids are not your kids, simply refer to the PPR
rule about not touching what is not yours.
communicate PPR to children, first implement it your own life.
Sign for Mine
the action of taking an object
belongs to someone else.
11 Sep 2004
Money Mentions Trading Tribe
MSN Money ... Friday 10th Sept 2004 ... mentions you and the trading tribe
(first line of fine print section)
Print - By Jon
Ed Seykota, a trader who gained fame as one of the featured professionals
in the Jack Schwager books Market Wizards, has developed a
concept of regional trader mutual-assistance cooperatives called Trading
Tribes. Visit his Web site to learn more ... My own support group consists
mainly of a small group of veteran traders and friends ... with whom I
exchange instant messages all day ... I hadn't realized that these chats
were a form of ongoing therapy, as well as opportunities to trade ideas.
seems well on its way toward becoming a passing AHA.
give advice, cheer each other up and help protect each other from
experiencing "bad" feelings.
Tribes members assist each other to fully experience k-notty feelings and
to find their positive intentions.