from Ed in Red)
29 Feb 2004
I would like to let you know that our "Family Tribe" has already
done its 10th weekly meeting. Now we are three and it's starting to expand,
pollinating through receptiveness and support, clarifying and catalyzing our
I am also running a site [in Portuguese] http://ttp.tripod.com.br
to support other people to set up their own "tribe" and clarify
Thanks for your support.
Family is the Essential Tribe.
is responsible for nine-tenths of whatever solid and durable happiness there
is in our lives. ~ C. S. Lewis
is learning what you didn't even know you didn't know.
~ Daniel J. Boorstin
29 Feb 2004
RE: your 2/21/04 post
concerning your understanding of proper use of
My understanding as a professional photographer involved on a daily basis
with issues of copyright, is that there is no difference whether use of a
copyrighted image is by a non-commercial, educational or public service
entity, or by a commercial entity. Images are copyrighted by their creators
at the moment of creation, any use by other parties whatsoever constitutes a
copyright violation. There is no clause under the copyright act that permits
certain other entities to claim free usage.
It's notable that you credit the assumed copyright holders.
I once was contacted by a mid-western university seeking permission to use
one of my images to illustrate one of their courses on their website. They
were requesting permission, but they had already copied the image and were
running it online ahead of contacting me. Entities seeking permission should
obtain said permission prior to any use of an image. As the use of the image
may have been objected to by the image's subjects, I had to decline
permission and additionally had the task of demanding the image's immediate
removal from their site. By running ahead of being granted
permission, the university put itself and me in a position where we both
could have been
sued by the subjects.
approach to writing is to go with the flow, and be considerate of others.
approach to winning the Boston Marathon (according to one of the winners) Is
to avoid fried foods and never look back.
does not recommend what you should do.
more opinions and analysis on copyrights, see:
29 Feb 2004
DIY TTP pt2
Thanks for the answer on DIT TTP, Wed 11 2004.
I still have one particular problem - what do you mean by " ...to just
experience the feeling"?
How do you experience a feeling? Do you mean - understand the feeling? If I
know about the feeling, then I am experiencing it somehow, right?
don't have any entries for Wed 11, 2004. (No Month).
feelings, Sending and Receiving, in the TTP sense, is something people seem
to learn best in person. You might consider joining a tribe or
attending a Workshop.
about feelings is not the same as experiencing them.
manual is not the same as sex.
not the same
being on the field.
28 Feb 2004
it and ... Forget it!
Some FAQ readers might be familiar with the Ronco infomercials, such as the
one for the Showtime Rotisserie.
This fellow Ron seems to know how to follow the system and stay with the
Showtime Trading System: “Set it and … Forget it!”
Note: Traders may also want to remember to manage risk and keep an eye on
their daily P&Ls to make sure the system is following the intentions of
you are trying to avoid the feelings of following a system, you can forget
to remember them, or remember to forget them. Forgetting to forget
them and remembering to remember them don't work so well.
can also experience the feelings of following your system and convert them
from nemeses to allies.
retention after an hour is about 50%, after 31 days, about 25%.
28 Feb 2004
of TT Questions
I notice 'polarity process' as a possible item for the May event. I'm
looking for the definition of 'polarity process' on TT. Where is it located?
Polarity process is something I use in the Incline Tribe from time to time
and plan to bring to the Workshop.
has to do with endowing your body with alternatives, and using TTP to
processing through to a decision, kinesthetically.
seem to propagate best person-to-person ... at a workshop, or by some of the
Pollinator Bees that buzz from tribe to tribe.
day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked. His response was a question: 'Where do
you want to go?' 'I don't know,' Alice answered. 'Then,' said the cat, 'it
doesn't matter.'" -- Lewis Carroll
of Forks in the Road
28 Feb 2004
Fired Up for Workshop
for the second time)
I'm really fired up for May 7,8,9! If there is anything I can do to help out
(like pick up drums, pick someone up at the airport or help set up), please
let me know, I'm happy doing it.
seem to catch on to TTP face-to-face, by practicing it with someone
who knows how to do it.
big contribution you can make is just to attend and practice with others.
28 Feb 2004
[To get] more code work offloaded, you might consider [an outsourcing
and defining the system is 99% of the job. The other 3% is being really good
28 Feb 2004
I would like to confirm the continued presence of my name & contact info
in the Intentional Community Directory. So far, I have been contacted about
TTP by around 3 people in India, but none of them from Chennai. However, we
are trying to work out a meeting, hopefully not too far into the future.
might consider mentioning what you want to do to some people in your local
27 Feb 2004
I wish to attend the upcoming TTP Workshop. I have sent the page you
requested to be signed along with a check for payment. I am looking forward
to attending the workshop.
27 Feb 2004
From Short-Term Traders
Hi Ed !
Interesting little snippet from online conversation between commodity
traders today, FYI.
A: Several locals who traded at MATIF moved to the futures exchange in
Montreal as they were also incapable of trading off-floor.
B: Reminds me of a candid conversation I had with a local in the silver pit
some years ago. I asked him how he traded, and he answered, "I look
at the pivots, daily highs and lows, support and resistance, oscillators,
calendar spreads & I steal from my customers." I asked how he
was doing. "Well, I'm losing in every strategy except the last
Crocodile allows the Plover to enter it's mouth and take bits of food.
The Plover gets a free meal and the Crocodile gets clean teeth and gums.
Trend Trader allows scalpers to take a few points here and there, against
the day when he just wants to keep buying and buying and buying ... and the
scalpers get to experience drinking out of a fire hose at close range.
on pieces of food and leeches
finds in the mouths of crocodiles.
legs are helpful
this line of work.
27 Feb 2004
Experiencing Feelings on the Fly can be exhilarating.
You might take your feelings of wanting to avoid your feelings, into TTP as
a starting point.
I find there is nothing exhilarating about crossing the threshold of
frustration, loss and boredom to exhilaration.
comments are consistent with trying to do TTP logically.
27 Feb 2004
I am diligently working with TTP for about nine months, for a total of about
20 hot seat experiences. Out of the 20 I would say 4-5 are accompanied by
major AHA's and tremendous outpouring of emotions.
first big one is when [Name 1] from the Toronto tribe participated in our
group and the second when [Name 2] from your Incline Village group attended
our meeting. The other 2-3 very intense hot seat experience are with [Name
3] the leader for the second Manhattan group ... Interesting how Fred finds
allies to help.
In fall of 2003 my focus and the target for Hardball is to 'Consistently
follow my system'. I am pleased to say as a result of Hardball after 15
long years of not following my systems, now I am able to consistently follow
my system and I have No Urge to do non system trades.
I believe whatever feelings are in the way of me consistently following
my systems are now dissolved. This is a major major achievement and
accomplishment for me !
true testament that your method work !
I still have much work to do in the area of trading, of position sizing etc,
still make blunders from time to time, however I am very committed to
working at them via TTP.
The readers of FAQ may be interested, it is not an easy straight line
process for me to reach this point, I experience many set backs along the
way, there are many times when I say to myself all this time on hot seat and
working with a tribe but no results to show for, still same issues with
trading. Please see my FAQ 'TTP
Peels Away the Layers, #2' Thu, 11 Dec 2003, my sense of frustration
is very apparent ! However I now believe all those hot seat experiences
help, one by one, each resolving some issue along the way, still have a way
to go ...
All the best and thanks again for all your assistance.
you Get to the Center
get another onion.
27 Feb 2004
I have a question about your comments below, could you please clarify how
they relate to a 100% mechanical systems trader?
thought all the "ritualistic trading activities" are incorporated
into a system and then it leaves no room for 'subtle and unconscious
activities" that dominate trading. Are you referring to discretionary
In addition, the theme of this workshop is "Defining Your System."
Traders may find that the majority of their "trading activities"
are basically ritualistic in nature and actually contribute little to the
process of trading successfully.
Meanwhile, a few activities, many of them subtle and unconscious, dominate
the trading. One of the intentions of this Workshop is to define each
trader's actual trading system, and to elevate the parts that contribute to
success to consciousness and consistency.
"room for subtle" does not incorporate into in your conscious
system or computer program; it appears in your emotional response patterns.
experience is that about 20% of the activities you perform as a trader
contribute about 80% of your profit - and that the other 80% of the things
you do, have, at best, no effect.
Pareto Principle: the 80/20 rule: about 20 of the effort produces about
80 of the result; 20 of the people produce 80 of the work; etc.
Pareto's Law of
log N = log A + m log x
27 Feb 2004
I think someone may have asked before but I cannot seem to find the exact
question on the FAQ. May I please ask you again to elaborate on what it
means that "Talent has them (top traders)"? Do you mean talent has
top traders finding their right livelihood (trading), and thus the resulting
fact is that they are top traders? Thanks.
sculptor begins the statue by imposing his image on the stone -- and ends by
taking away what the statue tells him doesn't belong on it.
first, he has the talent, later it has him.
can try to impose your will on the markets, or let them tell you what to do.
look up something on this site, use "Search this Site", above.
a sculptor sets it free;
27 Feb 2004
I have emailed the Sydney Australia contact, but as yet no reply. Could the
address be incorrect? or is there another tribe I could get involved in?
the Tribe Directory Page, a grey-out entry indicates no response to the
"Are you still operating" survey.
to 50% of people surveyed,
you want to know something,
says Brits are Foreplay Flops
Brits are a flop when it comes to foreplay, according to the biggest ever
survey of its kind.
The research found 80% of British men didn't even know what foreplay was,
mistaking it for a sport, a computer game or an item of clothing.
Jordan, chosen to front the event, said: "These results are so shocking
that even I was surprised.
"Sex without foreplay is like toast without butter and yet some people
in this country think that it's okay to get away without doing it, but not
in my book.
rated themselves very highly at foreplay, with 70% giving themselves 9/10
for their technique. But the ladies begged to differ. They gave men just
6/10, and rated themselves even lower, at 5/10.
26 Feb 2004
I would like to start a tribe.
are on the Directory Page
in the red
so are most all countries.
25 Feb 2004
You might enjoy reading this: http://www.processwork.org/
I noticed some similarities between TTP and Process Oriented Psychology.
Arnold Mindell's Process Work holds that the solution to a problem locates
within the disturbance itself.
Stanislav Grof holds that the symptom is the cure in action.
holds that experiencing feelings
a basic intention of life itself.
some people subscribe to laws that try to protect people from hearing things
that might give them a "bad" feeling.
25 Feb 2004
I have not felt compelled to update you on the progress of the [Location]
group for sometime. We continue with the work. From my subjective point of
view we engage deeper levels of feeling and experience.
I do feel compelled to write about a personal and I believe related
experience. First some background -- My wife's business fluctuates with the
city's economy and she finds it in a significant contraction. This has
caused a great deal of concern, she has laid off staff, far fewer jobs come
in the door and those that do have a smaller scale.
and her partner bicker more often. Over the past weeks she has spoken
frequently of feeling overwhelmed and frightened, but more often expresses
this in anger and frustration at me, our children, or anything else in her
path. I recognize much of the same feeling, avoidance of feeling, and
consequent dramatic reaction in myself as I experience some of the
inevitable reversals of promise and fortune associated with my current
efforts to raise capital for a new hedge fund. At our worst our dramas seem
to amplify each other's and we spiral into escalating anger and destructive
Over the past months, like many others, I have noted a kind of migration of
TTP awareness and practice into broader areas of my life and interactions
with others. But, last night something had caught me which seemed to
displace all I had learned.
came home late from a meeting with interested investors, a good step in the
right direction. The family had eaten, the children had finished their
homework, we spent the evening in an easy family way. The kids went off to
bed, my wife and I curled up together unwinding in front of the TV.
before we went to bed, she said something about work, I don't even remember
the comment, yet it echoed in me setting off a twinge of anxiety and fear.
By the time I shut off the lights I found my wife asleep in bed. I crawled
into bed, but could not fall asleep, anxiety and a kind of despondency
seemed to build through hours of restlessness.
the past months, I have increasingly found myself, when under stress or
caught up in a negative spiral, able to enter a TTP like state on my own,
letting myself embrace the full scope of even upsetting and difficult
feelings and experiencing an internal shift (Ahhhh!), which often triggers
yet another feeling continuing the process. This more often than not leads
to an experiential if not cognitively different perspective on the
underlying matter. Rather than a "do it yourself" process it feels
more like a natural extension of TTP and hardball into more areas of my
I deliberately tried this, but for the first time nothing I tried could
bring me to a place wherein I could let myself have the feelings, instead
the anxiety and despair continued to overwhelm me, my mind continued to
seemed as if every fear my wife has carried over the past months, had found
a comparable frequency resonating within my own psyche. Sometime after 3 AM
I passed into an unresolved numb like sleep, yet somehow grew increasingly
aware that my wife grew increasingly fit full. By 5 AM she woke me. In a
kind of agony of despair, sobbing, and defeat she began to talk: about her
fear, about feeling overwhelmed, and about wanting it all to stop.
listened as carefully as I could given my lack of sleep and the early hour,
yet felt her somehow distanced from a direct experience of the feelings --
she kept talking "about" the feelings rather than experiencing
them. At one point she said, "...can't we just make love and stop all
of this for a while..." The moment did not support that desperate
without a word, I took her into my arms, not to comfort her, but to
"receive" her. I have neither words nor context to properly relate
the measure of the experience, which followed.
felt wave upon wave of what I can only describe as feeling / sensation
/ emotion cascade through my body setting off intense trembling and physical
spasms, which sprung unbidden from different places inside of me.
wave passing / resolving as the physical sensations transformed me or
perhaps more precisely transformed through me. I noted, what I have in past
Ahhhh experiences recognized as endorphin released tears streaming down my
face and great yawns accompanying / simultaneous - with the release of
don't know how long we spent like that, it felt out of time. My wife said
nothing about my trembling and spasms, even though I had experienced them
physically moving her! After a time the "receiving" subsided. I
asked my wife how she felt. She replied in a exhausted, but deeply calm
voice, "tired," and fell into a deep sleep still wrapped in my
slept too, my mind at ease and untroubled. We woke by 7 AM to prepare for
our day and get the children to school. Yet we moved through our morning
rituals differently, tenderer with each other and with the children. She
called me early this afternoon to relate something she had heard from one of
the children's teachers, but I felt something deeper motivating the call. We
lingered on the phone, caressed by the silence. I do not know what to call
what has transpired between us, perhaps I don't need to know. It seems we
have entered a different realm of communication than we knew prior to this
Many thanks and best regards,
promise of NLP and Western therapy in general, is to alleviate suffering, to
somehow get rid of "bad" feelings.
example, the NLP methods of Swish, Bypass and Shunt all aim to move
you past "bad" feelings and on to "good" ones.
you point out, when you attempt to use TTP to effect deliverance, it does
to our own devices, we tend to go for the fix, rather than just being there
with the condition. In service to each other, we tend to return to our
willingness to just be.
long as you have an agenda to get better or to get rid of feelings, you tend
to hold back from fully experiencing your feelings in the now.
you fully experience your anxiety and despair, unconditionally, and fully,
it does not go away. It rather turns kind of inside out and
re-vivifies as part of your emotional control panel, one of your allies.
This may accompany emotional release and insight (Aha!)
narration of your subsequent receiving of your wife is consistent with
tapping into the joy.
to feeling the joy may manifest as paroxysmal spasms and waves of
might consider fully allowing your anxiety and your joy to manifest and
receive each other.
communion tends to radiate and heal those around you. I feel you and
your wife are fortunate to have each other along the path, and your friends
are fortunate to have you as inspiration and reference.
25 Feb 2004
I think this is a good paper [about a trading system] ... that some may find
does not endorse traders or commercial products. See Ground Rules.
25 Feb 2004
More Clarification on Trends
I'm still not sure I get it. From previous posts I understand that:
1. You only trade trending markets.
2. All markets have trending periods, but also sideways periods.
Therefore, you are saying that you are only trading markets when they are
Putting a stop outside the support and resistance band described on Feb 4
does not guarantee you are only trading when the market is trending.
Surely it is a fact that trend following involves getting whipsawed most of
This means that most trades (the losers) take place during sideways periods,
a trend trader will repeatedly buy failed breakouts through resistance until
eventually getting on one that succeeds and turns into a trend. The minority
of trades are therefore taken during the trending periods.
Can you clarify this apparent contradiction?
do not see a contradiction.
trend is your friend except at the ends where it bends.
try to tell the path
it "should" go.
23 Feb 2004
from the Past
Is this the famous Ed Seykota, known around these parts for his famous clear
vinyl album "Seykota" featuring the snappy tune "Tuna
I was your photographer from those days ... and I wanted you to know that
I'm still around, now working as a senior IT analyst for the City of
Encinitas, your old stomping grounds.
It's been over 20 years, but I was amazed by you then, and I'm still
Here's one for you ... and be sure to write again in 2024.
23 Feb 2004
Search for TTFAQ
Here is the resend of Seykota-Search. Here are some interesting facts:
1. See this Google site-specific search feature implemented at
the bottom of the home page. This is how it ultimately looks on any site.
Google provides some options I zero out, such as 'search WWW'. My
implementation searches my site only.
2. Google provides the generic setup, free at:
the license agreement.
3. The attached files are all set up for ... search. You can see the
TT logo added. I set everything up. All you have to do is paste it in. More
likely you'll look at the Google setup, look at what I did, and consider
your own tweaks. Either way the attached is ready to roll as-is.
4. The project got me thinking. See the most recent (prototype) results at
may consider book marking.
If the attached is (still) missing, let me know. Any questions call. My
intention is to make it simple and quick to implement search on the TT
for helping improve this site.
the header for
23 Feb 2004
to Start a Tribe
Hi Chief !
I'd like to start an Intentional Community. Maybe there are people in my
area that would like to attend ? Please post my email and name as a contact
person. Thank you and have a great day now.
start a tribe, see the procedure on the Tribe Directory page, including
providing the name of a city in which you intend to conduct your meetings.
23 Feb 2004
More on Magazine Covers
I found the post entitled "Classic Picture" and your response
interesting. I am familiar with the concept of utilizing magazine covers to
gain information about the degree to which a market move is discounted by
I have not heard before specific information of the type you offer in your
response to that post. You write, "Covers with
emotionally evocative images tend to be pretty good contrary
indicators." I find that statement more useful than the more
general idea, as I have heard it expressed by others, of looking at magazine
covers as a sentiment gauge. I wonder if there is any other information that
you could offer that would provide insight about utilizing mass media
publications to alert a trader to possible opportunity?
Specific things that I wonder about are whether you find certain types of
publications generally more useful than others for this purpose, say
"Fortune" or "Barron's" over "Money" or
"Time" or "Newsweek"? Perhaps the latter are more useful
than the former or vice versa, or perhaps there is no difference. I wonder
if the further removed the general subject matter covered by a magazine is
from the world of finance, the more telling an emotionally evocative image
relating to the markets on the cover might be?
More commentary from you on the criteria you find useful regarding using
magazine covers and other media images as contrary indicators would be
informative. I trade primarily using mechanical systems (although as you
point out in several instances in FAQ, every system has quite a bit of a
discretionary element to it), and I realize that magazine covers are a
difficult market barometer to program into a computer algorithm. However, I
like to explore investor psychology (especially my own!) as a means to gain
insight into things that I might program into a PC, or just program into my
own personal organic computational engine.
Members tend to be able to distinguish between story telling and emotional
abreaction - also between informational
magazine covers, and ones that reflect societal emotional abreactions - that
typically accompany a release of tension, an AHA, and the end of a trend.
23 Feb 2004
You have references on your site to www.TurtleTrader.com
and visa versa ... I found your site from [that] site and I enjoy
their "free" information and audio recordings.
resent the fact [that they charge] for their course ... [and that the
author] is not [a trader].
one learn the lessons that need to be taught in trading by someone that is
not a trader ... ?
recommend www.turtletrader.com for
the wealth of free information on that site.
does not endorse commercial products.
Edwin LeFevre, is the author of one the best books about trading, of all
time, Reminiscences of a Stock Operator, a story about Jesse
Livermore. LeFevre doesn't trade so much as write, mostly for the
Saturday Evening Post.
might like to take your feelings of resentment to a Tribe Meeting as an
you find the positive intention of your resentment, you might be able to use
it to guide your selection and maintenance of a support team.
23 Feb 2004
A number of questions and answers on FAQ have mentioned software bugs.
One method to reduce the number of bugs in a program is to do test driven
Test driven development breaks the programming process into 3 steps:
1. Create a test
2. Write code that will pass the test
The actual testing is done by a test engine program. Every time you compile
the code, you run the test engine. The engine runs every test that you have
written. That way, when you change something, you test not only that your
change had the effect you wanted, you also will find out if it broke some
other part of your system that you weren't thinking about.
For example, if I decide that I wanted to have a function that calculated a
20 day exponential moving average, I would first write the test.
double TestValue =
The next step would be to write the Calculations.TwentyDayExponential
function. You are done writing the function as soon as it passes the test.
Once you have a working TwentyDayExponential function, you may try and find
a new way to calculate the average. You are free to monkey with the
function as much as you want, because you know that if you do something
wrong, you will find it when your test fails.
Another way you may want to refactor is if you decide to also calculate a
50-day exponential moving average. One series of steps to do that is:
Make the test call a function called NDayExponential
Change the name of the Calculation function to NDayExponential
Recompile, and retest
Modify the test to pass in another parameter, 20, the number of days the
average is to calculate.
Modify the NDayExponential function to take the additional parameter.
Write a new test to calculate an NDayExponetial, this time passing 50 as the
number of days.
Modify the NDayExponential function until it passes both tests at the same
There are a few books on the subject of test driven development. There are
also a number of free resources.
has links to test engines for
dozens of different programming languages.
JUnit is the Java test engine. It is really the flagship of test engines,
and the junit site has a lot of information about test driven development
which will be useful whichever platform you use. http://junit.org/index.htm
For people who use C# or one of the other .NET languages, you will want
If anyone writes to you with questions about TDD, and you don't want to take
up space in the FAQ, you are welcome to forward the questions to my e-mail.
complicated methods to eliminate bugs, wind up introducing even more of
proofs and derivations can indicate excessive math-turbation.
might notice the extent to which you bury yourself in math, as a way to
avoid feelings, or as a way to avoid pulling the trigger on a trade.
the Ridiculous to the Sublime
for how easy it is
eat food with chopsticks.
23 Feb 2004
Please reserve me a place for the May workshop. I prefer a non - smoking
room. Check and page in the post.
23 Feb 2004
Ed Says: You might notice what is standing between you
and experiencing (1) your feelings of frustration and (2) your feelings of
not liking it.
Precisely, and if this can be reduced to a concept: not liking or not
accepting being unable to control (comprehend) people (the market).
things to concepts may be a way you avoid your feelings.
might take your feelings of wanting to avoid your feelings, into TTP as a
be Fred's way
get you to experience your feelings.
22 Feb 2004
Feelings & People
Dear Mr. Seykota,
As I'm working towards celebrating all my feelings ("Good" or
"Bad"), I begin to wonder and feel that I want to work towards
celebrating all the people (again, "Good" or "Bad") I
meet in life as well.
may not do things that I agree and I may not even like them, but I strive to
learn to embrace them as a person. I think there is a reason why they are
there and doing whatever they are doing, but I don't need to know that
reason. Just knowing that, my happiness does not need to depend on them or
whatever they do to me, and if I allow myself, I can celebrate my life with
them, just like I am celebrating with my feelings.
BTW, speaking of celebrating feelings, I feel that nowadays I see feelings
with a lot more curiosity instead of resentment, even if it is some
soreness, discomfort or even sudden shock. I like the progress and I thank
you for introducing me this concept of celebration.
21 Feb 2004
Feelings on the Fly
After 1 year of being a TTP practitioner with my tribe, I think I understand
the process very well to the point where I wonder if I might be okay to
experience feelings “on the fly” when it comes up instead of waiting for
the next tribe meeting.
Is it better to delay fully experiencing these feelings and wait to
experience them during the meetings where there are willing participants who
are aware of the process or just experience them with whoever is around?
I feel as a receiver, I am well equipped to practice the receiving with
whomever….but as a sender, I don’t feel the same way. I feel I need
someone who understands.
The same feelings come up before I approach potential investors to tell them
about the fund I am running as I suddenly think “they might not understand
anyway, so why bother?”
Heartbeat pumping, swallowing my throat, tonsils dry up etc…then I end up
sounding uncertain, anxious, jumpy, nervous, arrogant etc. (the exact
opposite of what I am in normal everyday conditions)
So in the end…I get what I want -à they end up not understanding my
campaign and equally important, not investing.
Another issue I have is that my track record is not good enough for them so
I end up not approaching potential investors until it is good enough. But it
is good enough for me as my goal is to have the best risk/reward
characteristics as a primary goal and the best absolute returns being a
Recently, I have not contributed to the tribe as no new feelings have arisen
(at least nothing that has not already been brought up in FAQ’s). I feel
this and the two issues I mentioned above comes across to most of the TT
readers and has not been addressed.
intention for TTP is for it to disappear, as a passing AHA, into the fabric
of life. See FAQ Home Page.
seems to work best in a Tribe setting, where others can help you focus on
fully experiencing your feelings.
meetings, Tribe Members tend to attract others who are good senders and
receivers, so TTP becomes just part of life itself.
experiencing feelings "on the fly" by yourself requires intention,
discipline, courage, practice - since you are trying to explore areas you
instinctively avoid - and you may drift into trying to fix or get rid of
your feelings, rather than go with them.
Feelings on the Fly
21 Feb 2004
'ol Abe Had his Head
the Right Place
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot
strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner
by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by
encouraging class hatred. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and
independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they
could and should do for themselves.
-- Abraham Lincoln
wonder where you think the people now running our government have their
might take your feelings about missing Abe and his philosophy to a Tribe
Meeting as an entry point.
much risk of him
those like him
an election today.
21 Feb 2004
TT Images -- Fair Use /
I am creating a new web page. I see images on Google search I am interested
in using. I see that TT pages use images from elsewhere on the web, and
provide a source link.
My question is: is the use of such images without explicit permission to do
so free of legal risk as far as you know?
I wish to do the same thing (to display some images that are located
elsewhere on MY page) and I am wondering if you can provide summary pointers
to any due-diligence research /l inks you may have.
does not dispense legal advice or tell you what you should do.
layman's understanding is that non-commercial, educational and public
service sites can use images from other sites if they cite the site.
you charge for your site, or re-sell the images, you may like to pay
royalties to the copyright owners.
a courtesy to the sites that furnish your clips, you might like to copy the
images and include them on your site, rather than refer to their URL, as
this does not tax their bandwidth.
recall one instance of a complaint about my use of images; I post an
animation of a girl jumping into a swimming pool to illustrate plunging into
a market. The girl's father writes and complains about using the clip.
I promptly remove it.
Avoid all Risk
can use your own pictures,
pictures of your own pictures,
pictures of them.
21 Feb 2004
NLP and TTP
Do you find Neural Linguistic Programming helpful in facilitating the TTP
Ah-Ha experience? I have included some of the NLP linguistic forms. These
forms remind me of your SVO-p rule. I find them helpful in my own internal
communication and when reading text that contains excessive distortions,
deletions and generalizations.
come from a couple of NLP books. One by Joseph O'Connor and John Seymour and
others from the classic The Structure of Magic by Bandler and
Grinder. It is part of NLP that I enjoy the most. I don't understand nor
really believe the eye-motion-visual / kinetic/ auditory part of NLP but I
find the following linguistic forms and their corresponding challenges
helpful. I shared them with our local TT.
Here are the list of the linguistic forms the books mention:
Example: "Money can't be made trading stocks"
Challenge: "Who Says?"
Example: "My stock did well"
Challenge: "Who or what specifically?"
Example: "He exploded."
Challenge: "How specifically is this happening?"
Example: "His education was superb."
Challenge: "How is this being done?"
Example: "Trend Trading is best."
Challenge: "Compared to what?"
Example: "He didn't realize."
Challenge "Are the parameter count of verb/nouns correct?"
Modal operators of Possibility
Example: "I can't trade like that."
Challenge: "What prevents you from ...?"
Example: "You always say the wrong thing at the wrong time."
Challenge: "Always?" "Never?" "Everyone?"
Modal operators of Necessity
Example: "I have to be in the market all the time."
Challenge: "What would happen if you did/didn't?"
Example: "Because my wife was an alcoholic, she didn't drive
Challenge: "What leads you to believe ...?"
Example: "He didn't compliment me on my dress. He doesn't like
Challenge: "How does this mean that?"
Example: "You think me stupid."
Challenge: "How do you know ....?"
Cause and Effect
Example: "You made me feel bad."
Challenge: "How exactly does that make this happen?"
is the Grinder and Bandler model of Milton Erickson's methods.
practice of NLP varies widely from practitioner to practitioner.
practitioners use NLP to avoid feelings by manipulating your neuro - logical
use NLP to locate and experience feeling sub-modalities, such as
temperature, texture, taste, etc.
facilitates Fred fully sharing experience with CM. This tends to
convert "bad" feelings into "good" instruments on your
emotional control panel - and tends to dissolve drama associating with
trying to experience repressed feelings.
seems compatible with NLP, and with other forms of personal and spiritual
you find the positive intention of your feelings of disgust and anger, you
can use them to detect the flaws in the linguistic forms you cite.
Positive Intention of Disgust
to detect linguistic manipulation
20 Feb 2004
I answer your curiosity. The Ceiling and Floor of an integer are two types
of mathematical rounding functions:
The ceiling of 5.1 is 6. The floor of 5.1 is 5. Some people like floors, I
insight I sight from the site you cite is that Rounding refers to various Nearest
Integer methods, not to Ceiling and Floor functions.
clients may prefer you use standard math (rather than clever inflation
functions) when you report your performance.
might take "desire to inflate" into your tribe process.
who like to inflate
a place at NASA
light weight Space Reflectors
20 Feb 2004
I hope you can give me some advice, because I am at a very conflicting point
in my trading career. I have been meeting Dr. [Name] because he has been
coming to consult with me and other individual traders at a trading shop I
work at in Chicago. Anyway, to get to my point .....
I have been a market maker in the E-mini S+P for two years glued to my
monitors all day long from bell to bell and have done quite well for myself,
but I truly believe that that is not where the real money in trading lies.
truly believe that trend trading is the way to go. I also believe that short
term trading on an intra day basis is extremely stressful and ultimately it
is just a losing proposition.
I am only 23, but already I'm thinking about the longevity of my trading
career as a scalper, and to be honest I think it can last only about 5 years
I discussed with Dr. [Name] whether I should continue to scalp and learn how
to trade my own money that I've made through scalping with a trend trading
style, or if I should actually quit my job as a scalper and try to work for
a successful hedge fund even for free if I have to so I can have a mentor to
learn how to trade trends.
don't know how much I can learn though because I truly believe that you can
only learn by actually trading. I was a self taught scalper, but I still
believe it helps to have mentors.
I even approached my boss about this, and he basically trashed long term
trend trading systems, saying that you cannot control risk trading long
term, and was very much against it.
I asked him, "How do you account for the success stories like yourself
or John Henry." He said that they were consistent because they learned
how to control risk on a intraday time frame.
said that most of the great trend traders blew up. He told me that Richard
Dennis blew up and Jesse Livermore ended his trading career with a bullet
through his head because of trend trading.
you agree with this?
still agree with Jesse Livermore, that money is made by catching trends with
strict money management rules and discipline. Not by jumping in and out of
the market on a second to second basis. What do you think?
you buy at A and sell at B.
to make money, B has to be higher than A, so there is a trend between A and
trend, no profit. All profitable trading is trend-trading.
you want big profits, you want big trends, and to trade long-term.
boss may have some issues about sticking with his positions and may be
trying to justify his trading style.
might refer him to this site or to a Workshop.
might have issues thinking for yourself, preferring to look to your boss or
to me for answers.
can take "wanting confirmation from others," into the
process as a starting point.
be a function of commitment.
20 Feb 2004
of Days Breakout and AHA
Thanks for your FAQ reply on "#-days breakout".
The history of confusion and final AHA goes like this.
A few years ago, I managed to get hold of [Some Rules for Trading].
Without any back-testing, I started using the complete system for my
trading. A mechanical trading approach is really a new concept to me. And
since I have not been successful with my pure fundamental analysis approach,
I allowed myself to try it out without any testing.
The initial trading result was not good. I got whip-saw a lot, sometime
after the initial position, sometime after the 2nd, 3rd or 4th additional
position. The feeling of being kick-out after the 4th pyramid entry really
drive me mad and fuming (I have no idea of TT at that time). I calculated
that my loss per trade increases from initial 2% to 5% if I were to be
stop-out after the 4th pyramid entry. I realized that this original system
does not suit me. It too aggressive for me. I need to tailor it to suit my
character and personality and my stomach ;)
I stop trading. I browsed through my trading diary (I kept a record of all
my trades) and re-read the [system rules] many times. I had insights and
aha! I noticed that those trades that were successful have certain chart
pattern like reverse-head-and-shoulder, trading range and round-saucer
bottom. I suddenly realized that my interpretation of the system entry and
breakout might be wrong ...
To me, the [description] is ambiguous, it causes my confusion ... it is this
kind of price pattern that I got whipsaw a lot. Later I discovered that I
had brought them at the top of trend. This was as much as the price could
contain for the time being. And correction was due, and kick me out.
I made the following minimal changes to the turtle system:
(1) entry - use breakout from more successful chart-pattern like trading
range or reverse-head-and-shoulder. Breakout from chart-pattern that has
price trending straight slope up is ignore.
(2) adding position - position is added after a new breakout if and only if
8-days low has occurred preceding any new breakout.
(3) use end-of-day breakout instead of intra-day breakout as mentioned
The new trading system really suit me well. I do not need to stare at the
quote machine, I gain personal time and freedom and my account grow. My
concern at that time was a quote from Richard Dennis during a interview in
Market Wizard. Richard Dennis said that most of his profit derived from one
or two winners and he urged his students to take all signal triggered. My
worry is what happened if the winner of the year does not have the
chart-pattern I am waiting for? I will miss the run up! No more profit!
The ... confusion was not solved and the worry of winner run away is
ignored. My new trading system has done quite well and I intend to stick to
This matter re-surface when I heard [about another] trading course. I did
not attend his course but I did browse through his website .. [and it has
I notice the discrepancy between the two [systems].
All of a sudden, I realized that [one of the systems] not be complete ...
This curiosity is aroused again when I read your FAQ reply on the
"trading range" triggered entry. Which is very similar to my entry
system. That is to enter when breakout of trading range. I was so eager to
ask you what if there is no trading range (hoping to get some ideas from
you) when later I notice that you said, it one out of the many ways.
Still my concern is what if the winner of the year does not have those
chart-pattern. It will run away from me. I try to feel the feeling of
missing the move. My stomach get a little tight and cramp, that same feeling
which I used to have when my buses or trains run-away. It dissolved, and
AHA! I tell myself, it okay to let it run-away ... just wait for another one
... I cannot stomach that many whipsaw before I finally find those kind of
Thanks Ed! You're great teacher!
not only seem to want the perfect trading system, you seem to want it to
appear as a definite set of rules.
sets of trading rules, such as you find in books and on internet sites are
ambiguous, even internally conflicting.
if you could find a set of rules that you can compile into code, your
program would likely guide only a sub-set of your actual trading process.
example, essential trading tasks include selecting the markets to put on the
system, determining the overall and individual portfolio risk, selling
instruments to make room for more promising ones, picking points at
which to roll contracts and at which to enter a new customer, etc ...
you notice feelings of desire for the "Holy Grail" or feelings of
wanting someone else to take responsibility for your actions, you might take
these into TTP.
example, you might take the feelings you have in your stomach into TTP as a
Actual Trading System
the set of feelings
are unwilling to experience
19 Feb 2004
Here - Riding Strong Trends
I just wanted you to know I am still here and still enjoying FAQ. I have
been mostly reading FAQ lately and experiencing not asking questions.
One stock I bought, [Symbol], is doing good so far. It kind of surprised me
with how fast it has moved!
Have you tried to get on any radio or Television shows promoting your
method and upcoming book?
I put a picture I took of Lake Tahoe in the background of my web site. I
snapped the picture the week of the October workshop. I did not realize how
nice it came out until recently. My friend made it the background for his
computer screen. If I do good with my trading I am going to buy a house
The site is just some links to help guide my internet use. www.universalking.com
spreads more by listening than by talking.
expect radio and TV to pick up on it at just the right moment of now.
of TTP Marketing Tool
Spreads by Receiving Others,
by telling them what to do.
19 Feb 2004
I wish to attend the workshop you are hosting on May 7th-9th. I fulfill the
additional requirements immediately following sending this email.
might even begin now, by defining your trading system. See Workshop
19 Feb 2004
it possible that you reserve a place in the workshop for me? I would like to
attend but at the moment I don't have the money to pay the fee. If I
couldn't raise it till April 23rd, two weeks before the beginning of the
shop and not attend, I'll inform you so that you can give the place away.
Workshop page for the procedure for reserving a place.
might take your feelings about not having enough money into TTP as a
starting point. Concern about money can work against sticking to your
both have concerns
not having enough money.
19 Feb 2004
Dear Ed Seykota,
I have a confusion!
What is the difference between simulation and testing a trading system with
In order to simulate a trading system, what do I need. All the historical
data or am I going to create some new data from historical ones to simulate
simulation is an imitation.
can program a computer to simulate your trading, by coding-in your
trading method and imitating your trading over historical data.
actual trading may differ from your simulation due to:
between your computer code and your actual system
degree to which you able to follow your own system.
help engineers design better cars
does not guarantee
make you a better driver.