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Nov 9, 2014

Trading System Progress

To Ed Seykota (bcc support team)

Thank you for your support with my workshop follow up. Thanks to those who provide such useful comments and feedback.

I commit to:

"Work hard on my trading systems for three hours a day: See what feelings come up. Report bi-monthly to my support team and FAQ." This starts from Ed's comment at the workshop - approximately "Are you actually serious about trading?"

* I average just under 3 hours per day on my trading systems for the last two months and almost exactly 3 hours per day (2.98 hours) since the workshop. I am now testing the code and working through the bugs. No show stoppers appear. Most bugs are easy to fix. One relating to margins takes more work to fix but I have finished that now and it did not force any major restructuring. Still, I do not feel confident I will be trading before Christmas as I have a considerable amount of work still to do. Lives of code are up to 6,000.

* Weight loss continues to 67 kg, at which point I go off my blood pressure medication (now 114/77 without medication). Years ago I start taking it because my BP sticks at a slightly high level (130-135/90-95). Going off the medication results in fluid gains of around 4kg as the diuretic effect dissipates so my weight goes up to 71kg in a week. I find this quite discouraging. Also the medication relaxes me and I feel a lot more tense and edgy when I stop taking it. Subsequently I eat too much and put on another 1kg to 72kg.

I feel very discouraged by all this. Also a lunch with my mother leaves me feeling terrible. I ca see myself putting all the weight back on, my efforts to get on better with my mother seem to have come to nothing, and I have still not finished my system after over 12 months.

I have a hot seat and rocks (previously reported) about the lunch and call her, and all is well. This seems to turn the tide and I get back on my diet strictly and take some steps to be more productive (disabling time-wasting web sites, restructuring my day). My weight starts falling again and progress on my trading systems resumes. I am back down to 69kg now and falling fast.

* Progress on fitness activities continues. I have both remaining lifts within 1 kg of target. Aerobic work continues beyond my initial targets. I am working my weighted climbs up to 200m climb with 30kg pack (currently 22.5kg) and 800m climb with 20kg pack (currently 630 meters). My wife says repeatedly she is very happy with my improved fitness and weight loss, and she has lost a lot of weight herself and looks very trim.

* My other activities are going well. Progress with physics is good. I do some exercises every day which helps progress a lot. I have only 3 months before completing my reading of the ancient Greeks. I also get the idea from and Charlie Munger to read text books to increase my general knowledge and this is going well and very enjoyable. I also spend some time working on my idea to 'revolutionize' the world wide web.

Reading Charlie Munger's book (Poor Charlie's Almanack) I note with interest that he is very devoted to systems concepts such as second order effects, use of models etc, even though his approach to investing is very different from trend following.

Next report 10th *February* 2014 - in *three* months. I plan to continue my reports at this lower frequency until I have either started trading futures or I have given up. My reports now span over a year. I find doing them very helpful, but if anyone doesn't want to receive them please let me know. I appreciate your receiving me.


Thank you for sharing your process.
Nov 9, 2014

More On Passing The Heart Rock (see previous)


[You might like my version].

Passing the Heart Rock

Thank you for sharing your process.
Nov 8, 2014

Rapport and Intimacy

Hi Ed ...

Thank you for investing in me. I am developing rapport and intimacy that was not possible before Trading Tribe and your influence in my life.

Best Regards,

Thank you for sharing your process and for acknowledging the work and for putting it into action.
Nov 7, 2140

Govopoly Afoot


After watching the cute commercial featuring soccer mania, I want to share the following link so that your readers might learn more about "Govopoly at Work": that is, the inner workings of FIFA including its ability to influence legislation to enhance its profitability (oh wait, it's a non-profit organization!)

The report is chilling and outrageous even though presented in an absolutely hilarious way!

Thank you for sharing the clip.

I wonder how you feel about this kind of thing.

Nov 7, 2014

More on Day Trading

Wow Ed!

Thank you for your response to my post: Nov 6, 2014 Workshop Follow Up - Day Trading System.

Thank you for accepting me without judgement, taking time to reflect/respond with your insights and for sharing your issues openly too.

I feel surprise that the feeling I expect <disappointment>< Ed disagrees> is not there.

I feel <befriended>, <reflected> and <accepted>

I realize that results indicate that I LIKE <DAUNTING>.

I proceed to formalize my system, starting with this process of feeling what it really is that I want and like.

This quote from another response about day trading feels very true:

"To the extent that day traders make money, I hold they have other skills that they use to select and identify patterns - and also to know when to trade and when not to trade."

YES. Thank you for making that particular statement.​

A large portion of my trading process is heuristic and takes place automatically, <when I feel like it> or <when I feel right>, <because I feel like it>.

These are long standing medicinal patterns for me!

I feel feelings of <not smart enough>,<bad at math>, <can't concentrate>, <do it myself> and <not good enough> hiding in my story.

I feel feelings of <where do I start?> mostly in my face. It feels like <about to sneeze>

I see <yes, I can do anything> is a very accurate observation of the medicinal process and notice that associated dramas include feelings and judgments I have about <can't do it>, <didn't do it>, <not worth it>,<not smart enough>,<bad at math>, <can't concentrate> and <not good enough>, hiding in my story.

I laugh and feel <friendly teasing> as I look at the photo you select for your reply.

I think this photo may be closer to what I'm proposing and equally absurd.

I have a lot of analysis, research and work to do in order to engineer a flying robot unicorn.

I collaborate with others that are great at identifying complex system dynamics and patterns.

I ask for help in a vague and imprecise way and get exceptionally valuable responses about my process.

I consider that I might consider asking specific questions about how I might approach analyzing data and system dynamics and that I might get specific answers.

I reflect that I notice issues <can't be done> and <only exists as I formally understand it>​

Thank you Ed!


Thank you for sharing your process.
Nov 7, 2014

Asthma Disappears


I try out the "wheeze-mama" process (below) ... my ashma dramatically clears.

I'm excited.

I report (more) to FAQ as I work through feelings that come up.

Thank you for sharing your process.

Medication for People

who want a hug

from mom.

Nov 7, 2014



In light of the recent elections, and your work with Govopoly, I think you might enjoy a couple of my favorite quotes:

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance,and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin

Thank you for sharing those quotations.

In Govopoly, I hold that assimilation of the private sector by the Govopoly system proceeds inexorably, and without regard to the winners and losers of public elections.

You might consider noticing whether or not the new congress makes any meaningful attempt to audit the fed, reduce the federal budget or terminate any federal agencies.
Nov 7, 2014

Modern-Day Bucket Shops


In researching mini-FOREX trading I conclude that, while the trades might execute on an actual duly authorized exchange, most other aspects of FOREX trading appear to be very similar to aspects of the treacherous old-time bucket-shops described in the book Reminiscences of a Stock Operator by Edwin Lefevre.

I wonder what your thoughts are about the various properties of modern-day, mini-FOREX trading, especially the .5% margin and automatic bucketing of trades, described below.

"...Most online forex firms offer up to 200 times leverage on a mini contract account. The mini contract size is usually 10,000 currency unit, 1/200th of 10,000 equals to 50 currency unit, meaning only 0.5% margin is required for open positions.

"...Generally, in online forex trading, the trader must deposit more funds before the margin call or the position will be closed. Since no calls are issued before the liquidation, the margin call is better known as 'margin out' in this case..."

"...The account will be margined out, meaning all the positions will be closed."


Thank you for sharing your conclusions and concerns.

Employing the combination of (1) high leverage [200:1] and (2) automatic liquidation - substantially reduces the chances for a trader to hold on to positions through normal market corrections.

As with many short-term trading plans, this one mostly provides medicinal distraction for deeper emotional issues - and only inadvertently and temporarily produces financial gain.

When the medicinal effectiveness of day trading starts to wear off, traders seeking a higher level of excitement might consider watching this clip that that takes the high-risk game to a new level:
Nov 7, 2014

Great Ad


This McDonald's commercial has to be one of the best ever. The commercial was done in Brazil in 2014, celebrating the World Cup. Bet you watch it more than once.

Gracias por enviarme el enlace. Aquí en Puerto Rico, nos encanta el fútbol - y los jugadores que tienen el talento.
Nov 7, 2014

The Good, The Bad and Goal

Hello Ed,

The Trading Tribe process helps me a lot to recognize my belives from childhood.

When i was child my parents and people around me keep saying that you are a good boy so from childhood i was making everything in two category good and bad.

and that category suggestions influenced by people around me, as any new thing i learn or came in contact with i try to put in a category of good and bad (decision process influnced by people around me, about how they think about that becuase they are the one who make me good boy).

i can see my past life pattern about selecting things and doing it. people around me tells me that i am a good lisnter(yes because they make me good boy so i have to listen to them).

In every decision of my past life i considerd this category for decision and some time i stuck because half people think good and other think bad. if i do anything which other group thinks bad then i put my self in a situation where i punish my self. i can see that pattern everywhere in past life in trading, public places, socialy my sex life.(K-not) every place i go i speak less because i was affraid to be wrong(bad) in front of some guy.

Now as i am a good boy already , i do not find my self motivated to do anything. so i am driving through away from motivation. not towards goal motivation. I only got active when i find my place shifting from good to bad. so in essence i got active when my account balance goes down try to make it at actual. so now i know my belives system how it influences me to make decision. so how do i neutralize it. And how do i move "towards goal motivation"

Thank you for such a great website.

Thank you for sharing your process and for raising this issue.

In TTP (the Trading Tribe Process) we follow our feelings and locate critical events that explain our behavior. We then work to replace medicinal behavior patterns with proactive ones.

You might consider taking your feelings about <good>, <bad> and <goals> to Tribe.

For more on The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, see the classic scene:

Nov 6, 2014

Workshop Follow Up - Day Trading System

Hi Ed,

I continue to reflect on the Workshop daily.

I remember that I notice you seem hot while telling a story about a challenge you post on FAQ regarding day trading. I notice your gestures seem emphatic and so does your tone of voice. I feel it has a sad and angry quality.

The sad / angry feelings seem to reach their peak as you say "It just does not exist!".

Your arms go from being bent at the elbow, hands in front of you to sort of dangling at your side for a moment.

I want to say "Go Ed! Do more of that! Good job!"

You resume your presentation of other process related workshop material.

Now I wonder if you have willingness to feel "It just does not exist!". I have willingness to receive you in process and decide to tell you this now. I want to reciprocate and give you the gift of receiving you give me.

I also notice an excited feeling in my chest. "I know this exists because I will it to be so." It is a proactive feeling.

When you say "It just does not exist!" I feel excitement and potential in my chest.​

Reflecting on the workshop experience, I realize I learn this feeling in France when I am told "Ça n'existe pas!" at various times.

When this happens, I keep working at it until whatever it is I am after magically does exist.

I use it whenever there is a challenge between now and now I have what I want.

I decide to share a sample of my trading results (attached in a zip archive)

I ask for your feedback on what I might consider abut my process and results and if your are willing to work with me.

Ed, I would like to work with you on creating an automated version of the "Profitable [Day Trading] System" and to have regular dialogue and collaboration with you about the system design and TTP processes.


I ask Ed to work with me on creating an automated version of the "PDTS".

I work with Ed and other Tribe members to reverse engineer my "trader feel" starting with examining how my intentions lead to the results I share. We determine how my intentions can be turned into a system that can be tested and automated to generate similar results by trading in many markets.

The work we do is profitable both financially and emotionally. We learn a lot about feelings, beliefs, systems and being in the now.

I record and codify aspects what we learn and experience as art installations, painting and sculpture that communicate the feelings of risk and reward.

I am paid well for my art by people that understand and are willing to experience feelings of risk.

Ed and other tribe members continue helping me understand my process through FAQ and in person. I learn from Ed, from the Trading Tribe and from my family and by being willing to experience my feelings.​

I am a source of stability, acceptance and love for my family and tribe.

I use trading, art and the allure of profit to connect with people.

I teach the intimacy model by example.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your process and for raising these issues.

If you wish to proceed to formalize your "system" you might consider defining your trading rules to a point such that a colleague can apply your rules to historical data and get the same trades as appear on your brokerage statement.

If you find this impractical or otherwise daunting, you might consider taking your feelings about <yes, I can do anything> to Tribe.

Thank you for pointing out my own attachment to <wanting to help people>, specifically wanting to help free them from expensive, addictive and medicinal behaviors such as day trading. Thank you for helping me remember that accepting them without judgment helps them more than do my admonitions.

Pigs With Wings
and Day Trading Systems
do not exist

except as conceptual foundations
for medicinal behavior.


Nov 6, 2014

Day Trader Challenge

Hi Ed,

Thank you for the information on MAR, I had just found it there. I am working on getting data imported into excel, a friend who uses same data source can help me next week.

The more I look at the intraday charts with ABCD setups, the more I understand what you told me about my application of discretion, this will be a challenge I think to properly backtest this.

If I have the steps correct:

1. export minimum 20 days of data of ES into excel with Open, High, Low and Close. Question - do I include globex data?

2. specifically show exact points of A, B, C and D legs of pattern
Question - This I am not sure best way to show that, that is, highlight price box on excel, or create separate columns for ABCD, or take a screencapture of pattern with date and times of pattern legs? Please let me know, thank you.

Thank you for raising these questions.

I hold day trading as an all-engaging exercise that includes intense mental and emotional activity with amplification by the risk of gain and loss.

Day trading generally serves as medication to cover up deeper feelings, generally associating with right livelihood and/or primary relationships.

Day traders who claim to follow a mechanical system typically find they cannot meet my standing challenge to define their system with enough precision to commit it to code.

I have yet to find a day trader who can show me (1) the output from his computer system, (2) his monthly brokerage statement and (3) a spreadsheet showing a 1-to-1 correspondence between (1) and (2).

To the extent that day traders make money, I hold they have other skills that they use to select and identify patterns - and also to know when to trade and when not to trade. Also, they likely place their trades according to longer term trends.

A-B-C-D patterns, Elliot Waves, Heads-and-Shoulders, Flags and Pennants and other such indicators generally provide enough ambiguity and discretion to support the drama of day trading.

In answer to your questions: 1. You can run the exercise with day-session data. 2. See if you can define your rules - such that another person, using your rules and your raw data, can get the same entries and exits you get.
Nov 6, 2014

Puffing Up Your MAR


Thank you for helping me understand that my recent comments about MAR smoothing are "clear as mud".

A simple example makes my point:

The attached image graphs the equity curves of a Buy & Hold strategy for the S&P 500 Total Return Index from June 30, 2008 to June 30, 2011 using daily, weekly, and monthly data bars.

If we look at the equity curve lows in Feb-March '09 we see that the daily data captures all of the max drawdown (maxDD), the weekly data capture most of the maxDD, and the monthly data "hops over" the worst of the maxDD.

All three CAGRs are the same: 10.35%.

But the maxDDs get smaller as the time length of each data bar increases: Daily, Weekly, Monthly = -47.27%, -46.36%, -41.48%, respectively.

So, as is often the case, in my experience, the MARs improve as data bar length gets longer: Daily, Weekly, Monthly = 0.219, 0.223, 0.249, respectively.

Hence my statement that switching from daily to weekly or monthly bars can smooth the equity curve and increase MAR.

In my experience, Institutional performance data are based on monthly data, so Institutional MARs are probably higher than those based on daily data.

All data and calculations are in the attached XL file.

Equity Line
with different sampling intervals.

The longer-interval samples
miss the peaks and valleys.


Thank you for raising this issue.

MAR provides a way to measure the volatility-normal rate of return of an investment.

If you intend to have a long and fruitful relationship with your client, you might consider showing him the highest-standard MAR you have (the most honest one), so as to properly calibrate his expectations.

If you wish to "dazzle" clients or otherwise mislead them, you might consider various ways to puff up your MAR.

- Increase your drawdown sampling interval to miss the really bad spike lows (your method, to the left).

- Take money out of the account before the end of the month so your profit / equity ratio looks better.

- Reduce your DD to zero by putting your money in a savings bank so even at a low interest rate of .2% you get MAR = infinity.

- After making money for a few years with a drawdown of, say 25%, cut your positions to about 1/5 of normal and then use long-term CAGR and short-term volatility of about 5%.

- Compute MAR with a complex formula on a hard-to-read spreadsheet so as to conceal errors that benefit MAR.

You Can Puff Up Your MAR
as much as you want.

Eventually you have to reconcile
expectations with performance.

Nov 6, 2014


Hi Ed,

I accumulate and record trading account data weekly. Each week, I sum the ending balances across accounts at various brokerage firms, where I trade geared ETFs. So far I have 30 weeks of data for one system I am experimenting with.

In 30 weeks of data, the largest drawdown is 24.15% over a 3-week period from 7/14/14 to 8/1/14.

In 30 weeks of data, the total increase in trading account equity after all expenses, as of now is: 39.24%.

I periodically remove some trading profits. I spend them to meet expenses etc.

When I do a MAR-like calculation for the measuring period of 30 weeks I get 39.24/24.15= 1.62.

I am not using the Compounding Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) in the numerator as I do not have a year of data.

I wonder how I can track my MAR in way that allows a valid/accurate comparison with the normal range for this annual-measured statistic, given the fact I have less than 1 year of data.


Thank you for raising this issue.

MAR (originally from the Managed Accounts Report newsletter) gives an indication of the performance of a fund, normal to its volatility.

In particular, you compute MAR as the quotient of CAGR (compound annual growth rate) and DD (worst percent draw down).

You might consider the effect of your sampling interval for draw downs.

The highest standard uses instantaneous sampling, or, more practically, daily sampling. As you make the DD sampling interval larger, you might miss some peaks and valleys that occur during the interval.

In the extreme, if you make money and sample only twice, once at the start and once at the end, then you can get a return with no drawdown and Mar = infinity. If you lose, you get a MAR of about -1.0.

To account for deposits and withdrawals, you might consider closing the books out at each event - and then stringing the individual trading segments together.

You can compute CAGR for any interval. See:

Nov 5, 2014

Acknowledging Non-Participation

Hi Ed,

I acknowledge my signing up for the Workshop and then not participating.

Recently, I tell some friends that I will visit them while they travel in America. I also tell [Name]i that I will come back on Wednesday. I buy my tickets and another friend comes to visit me in [Country].

My friend leaves thinking that I will leave for [Other Country].

When I am about to leave home I start to freak out. My family wants me to stay and they make it clear.

I stay at home and sit on the couch with my mother and sister in the dining room. I cant think straight. I dont know whether to stay or to go. I have to choose between my friends and my family.

I have this vision in my head and from my dreams. I notice that I dream my intentions. I wonder how to change my intentions. I think about this in my head while I freak out like a lost person unsure of what to do. My mom calms me down. I decide to cancel my ticket.

As I write notices to [Name] about my change of plan, i begin to cough air out of my stomach. As I inform my friends on messenger about my cancelling my body begins to slouch on the couch into a hiding position.

I book my flight for the next day. The same feeling comes again and I cannot leave. The feeling of unsure, I get confused and I cannot think when I get this feeling. I think it looks similar to in the Workshop when you got [Name] into that state and he hides under the table.

I would like to work on feeling this feeling. I think working on this will keep me from allowing myself to get manipulated.

Thank you,

Thank you for sharing your process.

You might consider taking your feelings about <confronting your family> to Tribe.

At some point, you might consider asking your mother if she might like to share feelings back and forth about you making decisions for yourself.

In Relationships With Strings

neither party dares to go
for the scissors.


Nov 5, 2014

Difficult Feelings


Last week I experience difficult feelings. I push through experiencing some feelings with the help of an old Tribe member. After some work I don't have the willingness to continue.

I feel some disappointment and come to realize that I want this frustrating part of my process. I wonder if I really want to change.

I feel I try and control the process in effort to get to the other side instead of just going with it. I view this control as drama to cover up deeper issues that I don't have the willingness to face now.

I feel extremely irritable, my jaws feel tight and sore. My asthma flares up after catching a little cold. I visit my parents while my wife works, she makes it home before I do and blows up.

A day or two later we share feelings on the situation. I find it difficult not to act defensive. She mentions a list of hurts she receives from her in-laws and myself. Issues that I think no longer exist come up. I tell her I feel torn. Why can't we coexist? I tell her I miss my mother and sometimes just want to spend time with my mother, father, sister and nephew. The next day my asthma clears dramatically and my jaw muscles relax. I realize I miss my mother and don't bury this feeling. I call her and tell her that I miss her. As we talk she brings up religion and I notice it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I even inquire about her proselytizing.

My irritation persists. I feel annoyance with my living situation. My wife says "YOU can just move us." I guess I can do that, but why do I have to ... I think to myself. I fear the responsibility that comes with making big decisions for three, my comfort zone revolves around just me, I want to change this. I think about my discomfort with leadership. Sometimes I feel thrust into my position now. I feel discomfort trying to fit in and work with an existing family unit.

I point fingers and view the situation as me and them. I don't have much intimacy here. I want the courage to lead. I recall reading about you standing your ground and protecting the Austin tribe earlier this year, I feel miles away from doing that right now, but maybe I can get to that point.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your process.

The next time you experience asthma, you might consider expelling most of your breath, until you hit the wheeze point. Then, as the rattle-whine sound comes out, form it into the words "ma-ma" with your mouth. Imagine yourself as a child, calling out for your mother.

If this brings up feelings, you might consider sharing them with your wife and/or taking them to Tribe. Let me know if this has an effect on your asthma or on your relationship with your mother.

Nov 5, 2014

Getting the Music Out

Dear Ed,

As I reflect on where I find myself in my life right now, I feel excitement, determination and some anxiety.

I experience myself at the beginning of a very different stage of my journey, one where I will take risks and experience rewards as I never have before.

I find this quote by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. and it sends chills through my body:

"Many people die with their music still in them. Why is this so? Too often it is because they are always getting ready to live. Before they know it, time runs out."

Thank you for helping me get my music out.

Thank you for sharing your process.

The Traveling Gypsies

playing for a throng of zero.

October, 2014, Plaza De Armas, Old San Juan, PR

Nov 5, 2014

Tribe Meeting Report


Check in (numbered going clockwise from my left):

The member to my left gestures to me to check in first.

Member 0 - I feel happy and on track. I feel I'm leaning back in my chair. I explain that I see my reflection before the meeting starts and notice I look tired. I feel relaxed and happy. I am surprised that tired does not feel sad and that I don't mind that I might be tired. This is a change I like. I am ready to support process and be here.

Member 1 tells us he has to leave early. He has some up and down issues that he wants to work on. He feels them in his belly. He seems hot and says something like "maybe I'll work on it in a bit".

Member 2 feels that he agrees with the feedback he received last week and that he can go further with his process if he is willing to. He seems hot​. He also says something like "maybe I'll work on it in a bit".

Member 3 (our newest member) feels "better than before" and expresses gratitude for the Tribe and being welcomed.

Member 4 acknowledges that he feels better than previous weeks and explains that he walks out of prior two meetings in the middle because he feels sick. He explains that TTP in it's current format may not be for him, he is not yet willing to embrace the feeling process or intimacy model, especially in [City]. He tells us he is good at and used to "solving problems", "fixing things" and "being right" it dominates his process.

He confirms that this is his last regular meeting in [City] and that he is moving to [New City] this coming Monday. I notice other members expressions changing, losing energy. I remember Member 4's snapshot of "being happy instead of being right".

Member 1 abruptly excuses himself.

Member 4 tells us he wants to feel able and willing to feel his feelings. He thinks he can do it. He tells us that he thinks he will learn do those things in [New City] more easily than in [City] in addition to other things he intends to do.

Member 4 shares his plan to collaborate with me on trading / trading related software and art that includes an IT component from [New City].

He states his intention of supporting our process and contributing what he can to this meeting.

Member 1 returns.

I ask if he feels ok. He says that he is fine. I ask him if he wants to "do some work". He declines.

I ask Member 2 if he still feels hot. He says he feels fine. I ask him if he wants to "do some work". He says "maybe later on", "maybe after...".

There is a pause.

I ask Member 3 if he would like to "do some work". He says "yes" " I would like to do some work".

He asks a few questions about practice. I explain some approaches that I have been taught and that I have tried.

I offer an explanation of forms.

I offer an explanation of judgement and willingness.

I offer an explanation of Hot Seat, Rocks Process and Hardball.

I explain process a bit more and we try out the different modalities of receiving and sending.​

I offer an example of different ways:​

"tell me what you are thinking"

"tell me what you are feeling"

"show me what you are feeling"

We briefly explore how one approach can lead to the next and how the "show me how you are feeling" can encompass and express the two verbal variants.

"show me what you are feeling" resonates with the group and Member 3 "gets it".

Member 3 does not have a particular issue he wants to work on.
He feels better than before and wants to see what it feels like.
He has willingness to feel his feelings and for us to receive him.

We start a hot seat. Hot seat says "feels better than before", "feels better than that s--t". Hot seat places is thumbs near his arm pits with his fingers extending across his chest. Hot seat develops the form and we encourage "more of that", "good job!". Hot seat gets deeper into the form and develops it even more. We encourage Hot seat and instinctively move closer to him.

The form shifts and I ask Hot seat if he is willing to continue feeling the feelings including this one. Hot seat shifts again and another form develops. This cycle continues. Form, judgement, form. The words "boundary" and "cycle" come up as Hot seat occasionally narrates his forms. We continue to encourage and receive him.

There is a visible pause in Hot seat's exertion, he furrows his brow, eyes still closed. Hot seat explains the prior form. We encourage him to keep telling us. Hot seat continues to develop a new form he calls "rage" and experiences feelings of rage and judgement about feeling rage.

It builds and then climaxes in an Ah ha. Hot seat seems surprised and relieved.

Hot seat says he feels "even better than before". Hot seat opens his eyes and says "Wow. I really feel really supported. I've never felt so upported. Thank you guys. This is good." Hot seat is ready to check out.

We have a quick check out. Everyone thanks him in their own way.

Check out becomes a discussion about process. The Hot seat asks us a lot of questions about "right way / wrong way". I use the opportunity to share my understanding of "Judges" and judging feelings. I note that in my process sometimes unwillingness to feel or judgement about a feeling is like a trap door that leads directly to the root feeling.

Other tribe members share their understanding of process and receiving and continue to provide affirmation and encouragement.

Everyone seems interested in discussing the mechanics of process. I explain how a Rocks process differs from and extends upon the Hot Seat process. I detect willingness and interest from the entire group.

Member 2 declines another offer to take the hot seat.

Member 4 brings up that I omit his favorite process: "Snapshot". I thank him and we discuss it at length. We agree that we will work on Snapshots for next meeting.

Member 3 continues to reflect on his Hot seat and is able to identify his issue. He briefly tells us his issue and understands how "blamed" relates to his hot seat.

Member 1 excuses himself for the night.

We check out.

Members express sadness about Member 4 leaving the group, everyone thanks him for his contributions and impact.

We ride down in the elevator together and our discussion leads Member 3 and I to realize that we have corresponded and collaborated / shared code for trading in 2003 via an internet forum.

Member 3 shares an indicator that converts price data into a musical scale, I share my work in return. I enjoy trading with the market music; it adds a different modality and life to the data. I reflect on this exchange over the years and feel good about it.

Member 3 and I both are exhilarated by this realization we "already know each other". I feel really glad to meet him and feel energized knowing he finds our Tribe.

The group says good night and splits up.

Member 4 and I walk in the same direction.

He says "What a coincidence." I say " Yeah, it's exactly right. It's perfect." He says "Yeah, it really is."

We share the feeling of excitement knowing that many "exactly right" "coincidences" happen and that we are on the right track. It affirms right livelihood.

Writing this, I reflect on an undocumented prior meeting and my rocks process about loss. I notice that I process Member 4 "moving" in a very pro-active way.

I notice our long term collaboration and friendship continues and grows stronger over the years. I envision visiting him in [New City] and working together on meaningful projects. I reflect on his support and the time we spend together ...

I notice the feelings of opportunity, exhilaration, exploration, adventure and acceptance continue to be present from their re-emergence in my process ...

I feel happy about our relationship, and that I relate to someone that also takes action and builds the life he wants.

I notice that I have an accepting family and Tribe and that my Tribe becomes family. I notice that I don't have "friends" in the typical sense. I notice that "work" includes my family and my Tribe and it feels right.

Thank you for receiving this Ed and for sharing The Trading Tribe.

Thank you for sharing your process and for documenting your meeting.
Nov 5, 2014

More on MAR


Thank you for the discussion of MARs.

One note I make is that switching from daily to weekly or monthly bars can "smooth" a system's drawdowns thereby improving MARs.

For example, the attached weekly ETF breakout system with a modest 6.89% CAGR and 15.6% max DD has a pretty good 0.44 MAR.

It risks 0.5% of equity at a time on breakouts with a 2.5 ATR trailing stop, 2 units maximum, 50% slippage, while selecting from a basket of 20 liquid ETFs that have history back to '03.

Thank you for sharing your process.

I do not know what you mean by "switching" from daily to weekly bars or "smoothing" a drawdown.

For example, if you switch bars from daily to weekly, you get a very different ATR (average true range) and your position sizing changes as well.

Nov 4, 2014

Trader Instinct - Muddy

Hi Ed,

I have been an Investor/Trader for 25 years and have found my profits have come from a Trader instinct (avoid occasional stock market crashes and find occasional opportunities) and not so much from Investing for long run.

I have had enough success to recently retire early from an Engineering career. Now I want to hone my Trading skills, where my passion was all along.

Through the years, it was never clear to me, the difference between Trading and Investing. The investing mind set held me block or at least muddy what I has trying to do.

How do I focus my Trading thoughts and not "muddy" my thinking with other assets set aside as an investment?


Thank you for sharing your process.

You might consider taking your feelings about <mud> to Tribe.

Mud Can Cover Up

important information.

Nov 4, 2014

Typos and Medicinal Processes

Hi Ed,

It is my intention to include typos in my previous updates to FAQ.
It is also my intension to be long winded, to make mistakes and to notice ex post facto.

I recognize three medicinal processes:
- long winded
- haste
- mess

The processes medicate feeling "unsure of my worth".

I choose to feel what it is like to be more precise and succinct with words instead.

The feeling is compact and energetic.

There is an amulet of bright blue light in the center of my chest.

My face feels cool.

I feel at ease.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your process.

Blue Light Special

Nov 3, 2014

You Can Jekyll - You Just Can't Hide

Hi Ed,

I see a correct reference to Griffin's book in the wrong place here and a little less correct one (Jeckyl instead of Jekyll) listed as expected ...

A hug




Thank you for noticing the typo and for reporting it to me in a way that helps me locate it easily.
Nov 3, 2014

Workshop Follow Up

Hi Ed,

I notice that I write a really long meeting report and then never send it.
I see it in my drafts and feel kind of surprised at both how long it is and that I don't send it.

Now, I just want to write something else regarding our last meeting and the week since.

Tribe Meeting Update:

Thank you Ed, our tribe is works well and continues to grow. I consider your suggestions and stay with whatever is happening.

Tribe members validate and openly experience their feelings. Hot seat(s) go as far as they are willing to go. Receivers stay with the process for as long as it takes. Hot seat happens. Rocks process happens. The overall feeling is one of intimacy, growth and thanks.

We check out on the last process and share a sense that something very powerful and spiritual happens.

We discuss new members wanting to join and experience some feelings about wanting to protect the tribe as we discuss our group.

The discussion starts many of us relating in a control oriented way.
I sense a lot of fear.

The feeling quickly changes to everyone relating in an intimacy oriented way.

The newest member decides and tells the group "this is for me".

Members stay in touch throughout the week. - thanking and encouraging each other.

After the meeting:

I start on a painting. It uses a military camouflage material as a canvas. Gold foil mountains and spikes protrude from the surface. I write sentences on the surface in pen. The words line up with the pattern. I write things like "should have made more", "I can't believe it is still going up", "I don't want to lose again", " some people will kill for this stuff". The words are faint and blend in.

I decide to use cosmetics to add colors of flower petals and a shimmery jewel-like quality.​

I have a fun dialog as I buy the cosmetics with the help of the store manager and an employee at a big chain drug store. I feel like these are my neighbors. The welcome the conversation and connection.

I notice that relate to people very honestly as I collect materials from different stores -- people ask what I'm making and seem interested in me and in my work.

It feels good.

I have no idea what the final outcome is to be. I know exactly what I'm doing -- letting it happen. I take it slowly and let the feelings dictate what I make, in the now.

I have a sense of exploration and feel open to finding out what comes up.

Almost a week later:

I notice that it's already been nearly one week and the Tribe meets again tomorrow.

I reflect on the impact that Tribe has on my life. My wife and I are able to have greater intimacy and success managing and responding to challenges. We are able to experience our feelings and support one another. We feel close.

I occasionally feel down or impatient with my recent overall progress in trading. I continue feeling difficult feelings, especially disappointment when I don't achieve a particular outcome at a particular time.

I see myself creating this opportunity to feel the feelings of "out of control" an "loss" and feel it becoming less and less painful. Losses become smaller and smaller.

I sense it as an opportunity to keep feeling the feelings and clear the way for trading well and and creating art as a way of being.

Small losses happen. I feel secure that I will do very well. I like the difference in the way it feels. It's a small but significant change. I'm unburdened. It's easier to just be with whatever is happening.

I discuss my observations with a friend and fellow Tribe member. I tell him that this feels like a whipsaw or consolidation.

He observes that I'm growing into my snapshot of "Grand Patriarch" and also observes that I've brought a lot of welcome changes to the Tribe. He suggests that I might consider if my whipsaw feeling might be a "Flag" . He feels that I can trend again any time.

Expressing gratitude for you, Ed.

Every day since the workshop I reflect on changes I feel happening. I frequently feel deep gratitude for the changes. I acknowledge the technology that initiates the changes I feel and feel gratitude and kindness towards my teacher , my wife and kids, my family and my Tribe..

Ed, I have a lot of love, respect and gratitude for you and your way of giving.

I'm very, very glad I attend the workshop and experienced being part of the Tribe with you.

The experience is with me every day, in the now.

The life I lead and our work in NYC Trading Tribe becomes an extension of the practice and Intimacy model I learn from you.

Now I notice this I a really long update too and that apparently I really like writing LONG updates.


Thank you Ed.


Thank you for sharing your process and for acknowledging me.
Nov 1, 2014


Hi Ed,

... I have a nagging question on one of the back test samples you showed me on your computer, when we looked at the MAR I believe I remember it was .47? Isnt that low for MAR and shouldn't it be higher 2.0 or better? Maybe I am confusing it with something else.

Thank you for raising this issue.

To compute MAR, you take your Compounding Annual Growth Rate (percent per year) and divide it by your Biggest Percent Drawdown (percent).

That might give you, say (10 percent per year return) / (20 percent drawdown) or somewhere around .5 per year.

Thus, MAR has the units of measure of "frequency" or number of times per year. It tells you how many times per year you might expect to earn back your largest drawdown.

A MAR of .5/year indicates you might earn back your worst drawdown .5 times per year; it takes you two years to earn it back.

If you bet heavy, you also have to take into account the law of large bet size - since a 1% gain pretty much earns back a 1% loss - while a 50% gain only earns back half of a 50% loss.

If you want a really big MAR, you can stop trading and put all your money into a savings bank at, say, .02 % per year. Since you have no drawdown, your MAR goes to infinity.

Actual trading systems might get around .5/year, if they hit some good markets. Claims of more than that, especially claims above 2.0 might have some tricky math somewhere under the hood.

Nov 1, 2014

Fast Park


You might like this video about how to park a motorcycle quickly.
Thank you for sending me the link.
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